Are They Taking It Too Far?

[Sam]

:rolleyes: Now all of you know that I advocate a cleaner and better environment. But lately there is a group whose ad is constantly on my tv screen and it's driving me NUTS!!!
Please check out the second video ad on this link and tell me...
AREN'T THEY TAKING THIS TOO FAR???
http://www.tappwater.org/tv.aspx

Now if this were a large city full of dogs with no where else to poop...then I would say "Fine grab a pooper scooper and knock yourself out!"
But this is an area that has plenty of room for that! What is a bigger pollutant?
Having a dog do what God created him to do and made it biodegradeable for that purpose? OR following every dog around and either scooping it into a plastic bag or attaching a plastic bag to it's behind (yes I have seen ads where that is being sold!) which will end up filling a landfill somewhere and IS NOT biodegradeable!
And why are they just targeted dogs? Have they NEVER smelled cat poop?
What's next? Do they intend to attach plastic baggies to birds and other animals?? I just think this commercial is REDICULOUS!!!:mad:
What do you all think? Am I wrong here??

[brilliant!MacLeod]

Well,here in Germany we have this for a long time.You have to have a plastic bag with you and a shovel and clean it all up.And I think it´s not too bad.When Kira was still playing in the sandbox at the playground we always had to look carefully before letting the kids in because the boxes used to be full of dog mess before they had the dog owners clean up the mess. And did you ever step into dog mess with your new pumps? :mad:All the streets used to be full of these "anti-personell-mines" as we used to call them.
We are a rural area and when the dogs poop into the meadow it is poisened for the cattle and it makes them sick to eat the grass.
So at least around here it is a good thing to have the dog mess cleaned up by the owner.
I stopp rambling now,and BTW ,I didn´t watch the video,something was wrong with my pc.I only answered to you post.
And you are right,there is no difference to any cat mess!!!

[L_Shell]

In most places these days you have to clean up after your dog. Here in Miami, there are so many parks that no longer allow pets because people did not clean up after them. We now have a dog park (which we did not have before) that most people go to. I have to admit though, it is not like the park I use to take my Rupert to; that park was wide open, it had trails and always something different going on. At our dog park, it is fenced in, there is a big dog area with a pond and so forth and then there is a small dog area that is fenced in away from the fun. Needless to say, I spend my time walking my two dogs around the neighborhood and not at the dog park and yes, I do clean up after them.

[Coolwater]

"anti-personell-mines" I LOVE that! I am adopting that term immediately!

It sounds like what we need to do is produce and market cute, re-useable cloth bags containing a stack of stiff cardstock spatulas and waxed paper mal-de-mer bags for cleaning up dog poop. Or cat poop, if your cats are considerate enough to poop where you can catch them doing it. When the cloth bag is empty, people can buy refills of the bags and spatulas. And we could make great big ones for the cities that don't keep their carriage horses in diapers. Anyway, it would all be biodegradable, and the proceeds could go to PEACE. Call it the "PEACE: Poop for the Kids" campaign. :D

[appeace]

My grandmother used to take a spade and "turn over" the poop, dirt and all. The grass will grow back up and has its own fertilizer! She didnt have dogs and disliked very much when "neighbors" used her lawn. But it did make the grass greener and no mess:D

[Coolwater]

Hmm, that's a good idea. I mean, if you simply leave it to the sun and wind, it's good for the grass anyway, but you do have to pay great attention to where you walk.

My husband was complaining when the new grass came in two weeks ago that we had bight green tufts where the dog poop was in the back yard. Thanks to the dogs' dislike of dragging themselves through the snow, the brightest patches are along the sidewalk nearest the house.;) Of course once you fertilize the rest of the yard, those fade into the rest of the lawn.

[Sam]

I'm totally OK with cleaning up behind your dog if you live in a residential area or if it's in a heavily populated area. But I think that should apply for ALL pets and not just dogs.
I spent my early years on a farm so I've had many experiences stepping in it.
But their commercial only talks about dogs and how it's going to end up in drinking water.
My point is that SO is the poop of every living creature on the planet! So do we just target dogs? Are they planning to just close waste treatment plants? Because even though it is chemically treated it still ends up there. Are we going to attach a plastic bag to the behinds of deer, birds and squirrels? If so there are a few birds I'd like to make wear them. because I'm not sure how much goes in the drinking water but plenty has found it's way on my car.:rolleyes: THERE'S NO WAY I'M CLEANING UP BEHIND BEARS!

I just think when it comes to the animal life on this planet that our creator took into account their digestive waste and made it so that it would dissipate as it should. Without it would the soil have any fertilization for the planets plant life?

[Coolwater]

When my older cousins came from the city, they would dare us to do things and tease us when we wouldn't or if we failed. So, one day I dared them to run across the pasture in bare feet. I said that I would if they would. We all did. I made it unscathed, but they had thistle stickers and cow poop between their toes. After that they didn't dare us to do things any more.

[renate]

:p:p:o EWW-that sounds icky about the cow poop and their toes-YUCK!!

Renate

[Sam]

:D Hey Coolwater....Ever play cow patty bingo??

It was always fun to trick city kids into going in the cow pasture. Of course we conviently forgot to tell them about the bull.:rolleyes::p

[Coolwater]

Cow poop between the toes is nasty, Renate. I think thistles are worse, though. They're both totally avoidable if you watch where you step.

You know, I've heard of cow chip bingo, but never had a chance to play. (mock seriously) That's gambling, you know, Sam, and I don't like to see people corrupting a poor cow.

Noooooo! You really put people in a pasture with a bull? A DAIRY bull? :eek::eek::eek: Those things are mean!

[waltersv]

I agree with you, Sam - they are taking it too far. I totally understand having to clean up your dog's mess in public areas, such as sidewalks, and parks. But I live in a rural area, with a big dog and two cats - you should see how green my grass is! But in our immediate area, we don't have a public sewage system; all homeowners are responsible for their own underground septic systems. Our property borders a local stream that feeds directly into a large water resevoir that is used for the city water system. Of course, the water goes through a filtering system there. Even our laundry water goes through this same system. My point is - where do you draw the line? You can't.
Although, I do like the idea of biodegradable baggies and scoopers.

What bothers me more is the amount of plastics that clutter our beautiful roadways. I can't imagine being lazy enough to throw my garbage out the window of my car, but it seems to be rampant here. Local organizations and families sponsor certain strips of highway and spend time, usually in the spring, picking up roadway garbage, which the state will collect. How sad it is to spend a beautiful day outside picking up some moron's garbage. Lots of morons, unfortunately. Whatever happend to "Keep America Beautiful"?

Sorry, I got carried away - guess it is a sore spot.

[Scarpetta]

:D Hey Coolwater....Ever play cow patty bingo??

It was always fun to trick city kids into going in the cow pasture. Of course we conviently forgot to tell them about the bull.:rolleyes::p

:) Oh that is 'evil'.

On the picking up after your 'pet' topic. That is a good idea. I have learned that putting a sandwich bag on my hand, picking up the 'stuff', turning the bag, stuff side in, tieing a knot, (or twist tie), placing in grocery bag, and continuing on works well. I always have a grocery bag in one pocket, sandwich bags in the other.

Makes for a cleaner environment for the next person happening along the sidewalk, trail, park, wherever.

On another topic, roadside litter mentioned above. Getting organizations, schools to 'adopt' sections of roads and plan periodic pick ups works well. NOT seeing garbage thrown out (having adequate ordinances too) often encourages SOME to quit doing it. Some, not all. Catching some, charging them with public littering and getting them on cleanup detail sometimes gets the message across. Sometimes. Our community does have many adopted stretches of roads, and they look pretty litter free. It does work with persistance.

[Coolwater]

We have big party-like clean-up days here to keep the river banks clean. We also have litter laws and laws about open truck beds, too. The open truck bed law says that you can't toss trash into your uncovered pick-up truck bed, because it will simply all blow out as you drive. It must help, as I haven't seen anyone toss a fast food sack from a cab window into the back of the truck in a long time. I have to admit to admiring the skill it takes to do that in a moving truck.

I wonder if having recycling pick up available may help, too? I don't think it helps keep litter from blowing about (might make that a little worse, in fact), but if your trash pick-up bill is reduced by participating in recycling, and you begin to recycle, then you may start thinking of yourself as a "green" proponent, and less likely to toss trash from your car. Maybe?

[Scarpetta]

We have big party-like clean-up days here to keep the river banks clean. We also have litter laws and laws about open truck beds, too. The open truck bed law says that you can't toss trash into your uncovered pick-up truck bed, because it will simply all blow out as you drive. It must help, as I haven't seen anyone toss a fast food sack from a cab window into the back of the truck in a long time. I have to admit to admiring the skill it takes to do that in a moving truck.

I wonder if having recycling pick up available may help, too? I don't think it helps keep litter from blowing about (might make that a little worse, in fact), but if your trash pick-up bill is reduced by participating in recycling, and you begin to recycle, then you may start thinking of yourself as a "green" proponent, and less likely to toss trash from your car. Maybe?

Yes, that too. Taking the time to actually take it from your car and put it in a recycling bin and actually getting it to the curb for pick up, and for some of us, loading it all in the pickup for the trip to the recycling center.

Its a mindset, that once you become a part of improving the environment, its not really time consuming at all.

[waltersv]

We do have recycling in our area, once a month, and we do have littering laws, supposedly. The problem is:

1. We're talking about people that are lazy enough to throw stuff out the window. They are not going to take the time to recycle.

2. No one enforces the littering laws. We just got back from a road trip to N. Carolina, and saw many No Littering signs along the way, but when we got back into Pennsylvania, they disappeared. My husband says they exist, I say where??

[Coolwater]

I think that is why some communities encourage recycling by making it part of the waste removal system: if you have your recycling bin out on the appointed day, then you get a reduction in the fee you pay for having your trash picked up.

We just got a new rule that says, "No yard waste in bags!" You dump your weeds and sticks and so on right onto the pavement and a spiffy truck with a chipper built into it comes around and eats your yard waste. They've had the truck for a couple of years, but used it only for autumn leaves and Christmas trees. The city counsel was going around saying, "Why didn't we think of this sooner??"

[appeace]

What a wonderful idea, Cool! If the city counsel were really on the ball they would sell that as compost and, perhaps, not have to go up on taxes so much:rolleyes:

[Coolwater]

They use the mulch on city property, but I think residents can go and get some for free if they want it. At our house we have a composter, and so the the previous owners (I finally managed to drag the rusty, buried, obstinate remains of its chicken wire to the dumpster just the other day) , so we have enough dirt of our own. :)

[Sam]

:p BUT COOL....I promise the cows were not gambling!! All they had to do was walk across a pasture and poop on a numbered square. We did the gambling for them. It was held at a rodeo and IT WAS FOR CHARITY!! Proceeds went to a shelter for battered women and children and the Toys for Tots.

:rolleyes: Those city kids deserved it! And you'd be surprised how fast their feet can fly when a bull starts charging! At least we didn't send them out there with red clothing on.:D

They do use a wood chipper here for city residents yard trimming. Problem is they only come around once a month and nobody knows what day that will be. So the trimmings end up lying in the edge of the road and get scattered by the time it gets picked up.
We used to have an Adopt A Highway plan here but each year the membership changed and when it did...the new members wouldn't fulfil their obligation. So now inmates and people serving community service do clean up detail throughout the county.

We were having a lot of problems with it still though. So petitions got signed and forced local govt. to start enforcing the Anti-Litter laws that were already in place. After a few people got caught and had to pay the $500.00 fine...word got around. So not much littering going on now.

But now you rarely see any livestock. Only one dairy left and they make cheese. The chicken breeders were shut down and now they only exists in chicken houses along the interstate north of here.
Nothing "Free Range" allowed in these parts.:(

[appeace]

Thank goodness, we live in a still small enough town that several folks have chickens (even free range) where we can get fresh eggs!
I wish our town had a chipper and would provide mulching service. Sure would beat putting branches, etc, in the trash. We leave clippings on the lawn for fertilizer but do have many large trees and with spring weather storms, we do loose alot of branches which have to be cut up and put in trash cans for the garbage service to pick up.

As to the "bull" story--here's one. My hubby and I own a farm/ranch where he grew up and along with caring for the animals one must keep all the fences mended and standing. Well, one day my 6'3" hubby was mending fence on the backside of the pasture which connected to our neighbor who also raised cattle.
My hubby was opening the back gate on the pickup and putting on his gloves and getting the tools out to mend the fence. When he turned around to face the fence he came nose to nose with a Beefmaster bull! For those who dont know cattle Beefmasters are a very large, tall breed of cattle and not known for their gentle temperament.
My hubby froze, as he had not heard the bull walk up and did not know quite what to do as there was a hole in the fence and he was pinned between the truck and the bull! So, he just kinda stood there for a minute. Then the bull reached out and licked my hubby across the face!:eek::D
Well, that set my hubby off and he went to spittin and cussin which scared the poor bull to no end who ran off lickety-split!
I was laughing so hard I nearly fell off my horse (I was supposed to be herding our cattle to the pen for doctoring) at the sight!:rolleyes:
Dont you just love Gods humor???;)

[Coolwater]

More cow humor - indirectly:

We went to a Chinese restaurant for Mother's Day. With our check and fortune cookies, our waitress handed me a rose bud! "Roses for the mothers," she said. How sweet! I was very appreciative.

As we were opening our fortune cookies, my husband got the oddest look on his face. Must have been some fortune, I thought, and I asked what it said. "Here," he said. "You read it." I read it aloud, and it said, "No matter what you want to think, a cow does not appreciate roses." :eek:

THANKS A LOT!!!

[appeace]

Oh my!! :eek::D

[Sam]

:D Now those were some good stories!! ROFL

:rolleyes: I wasn't the most mischievous of the siblings. My oldest brother had a friend who had just moved from a large city up north. He tricked the boy into urinating on an electric fence. Lucky for him my dad was hiding out near the pasture having a drink (mom didn't allow alcohol in the house). He heard the commotion and killed the power.:D

BTW I found this link interesting. Thought some of you might too.
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-18/

and this one too.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Bat-Guano-Organic-Fertilizer.html

[Coolwater]

Dear Lord! Didn't the poor kid simply stop urinating when the shock hit him? That's worse than cow pies!

We had a dog whose curled up tail caught the fence when he walked under it. After that one time, he'd walk casually under the fence, but his tail always always hung straight down as he did. Charlie was no fool.

:rolleyes: My husband has had some bad luck with fortune cookies. Once he was teasing me, saying, "Fate or Fortune? Fate or Fortune?" and turning the little cookie tray around so that I had to reach for the same fortune cookie each time. I finally gave up, laughing, and took the "Fate" cookie. As I opened it, he said dramatically, "This is your fate!" - and it was empty!!!

The look on his face was priceless. He was SO apologetic! I was laughing so hard and trying not to make any noise, and people at other tables were grinning and looking puzzled. Man, that was funny.

[Littledevil]

Sam, you bring up a good point. Unless you're going to clean up after all animals in the world it is kind of pointless and not good for the environment with the plastic bags. I can understand cleaning up dog poop in the city at parks and such, but come on kind of redundant with other animals pooping their butts off in the area too. Have you ever had a pigion poop on you? Not fun!

These stories are too funny. I dont' have any cow stories, except for when I was a kid I kind of wandered (jumped over the fence) into a cow pasture in North Florida off Suwannee River. The bull in that pasture didn't really like me in his area and promptly chased me back out. The same day I decided to go fishing, after catching a couple fish, my line caught on something. At first I thought it was a big fish and worked on it for a few minutes until I thought my line was just caught on a tree or something. Getting annoyed I reeled in my line as far as I could and then yanked on it. Out came a big snake at me. I ducked as it flew over my head. Being that I do not like any kind of snake at all, I dropped my pole and I went screaming up the river bank. I was 10 at the time, so you can imagine my terror. I decided to stay in doors the rest of the day.

[appeace]

Another funny cow story-----
My hubby and I have a farm/ranch and raise all sorts of critters. We had a Brahman cow which are not noted for their sweet temperament, but this particular gray cow had been hand raised and was even petable when she did not have a calf. She was so spoiled (HOW SPOILED WAS SHE?:rolleyes:) wheI was 8mths pregnant with my daughter I would cut the bailing wire from around the bales of hay that hubby would throw off the truck and spread the hay for the cattle to eat. Gray cow would have to come take a bite of each bale to decide which one she was actually going to eat.
This was funny enough by itself-----but if I did not move fast enough to suit her and get out of her way she would wait until I (8 mths preg) was bent over a bale and then butt me in the behind knocking me over the bale and down!:eek:
After about 3-4 times of my hefty behind and protruding tummy trying to haul myself up off the ground--I learned to sit on the bale while cutting the wire!:D

[Coolwater]

Sam, you evil thing, I looked at the site you recommended.

http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publication...cts/AG-439-18/!

It's chemistry

[Sam]

:D Laughing really hard at all these stories.
Appeace be sure to stay away from female pigs (sows) when pregnant or after surgery.
They will bite a female during those times.

ROFL at Cool! Of course it's chemistry! Poop is a chemical compound!!:D
I thought you all might find it interesting comparing the differences in the chemical make up of fertilizers. Both natural and synthetic.
Of course those making a stink about dog poop claim it is NOT fertilzer but it seems basic chemistry disagrees.;)

OK True story. We were cutting down some vines in our back yard. (Not where we live now.) They had some type of tiny black berries on them. Throughout the day we had noticed a number of small blackbirds flying around and perching in the tree tops. Our next door neighbor had come over to lend us a hand. The more vines we cut down...the more of those little birds seemed to gather. Finally the treetops were covered in them. We had began discussing how odd that was. So we threw all the vines into a large pile and was preparing to set fire to them. All of a sudden those birds flew out of the treetops all at once and flew within a foot of our heads!!
YEP you guessed it!! They dropped so many bird bombs it looked and sounded like it was raining bird poop.
Hubby went ballistic! He became even more enraged when he saw they had missed me and not everyone else. I was laughing so hard at them all! I told them to grab the water hose and I would go in to get some cleaning supplies....BUT......just about that time the birds decided to make a second fly over! ;) Yep you guessed it...They got me too this time!!
So we left the vines right where they were...grabbed the water hose and headed for the carport to get cleaned off before going inside to fight for the shower!! The next day those birds had picked those vines clean of all those berries.

[appeace]

Bbwwwwwwwwwaaa!:D
Yup, we have the same thing here in Texas with female grackles or "cattle birds" named such because they tend to land on and pick ticks from cattle.
They congregate in huge flocks in the trees and, when spooked, will "bomb" anyone and anything in their path!:mad: They are also very smart and using "fake" birds of prey or their sounds is usually not very effective after a short while---Ackkkkkkk:(

[Scarpetta]

You must have found those blackbirds favorite restaurant Sam!

Apparently their strategy worked for one last meal, they got the berries.

Mountain Ash trees that develop clusters of red-orange berries each year are the birds renewable annual resource as well. Usually they are the pre-flight last party prior to flying South. What is required is the delicate balance of the berries fermentation, following frosts, that leads to feeding frenzies of hundreds of birds. Also to very inebriated birds that fly into walls, windows, each other. If you have windows hanging something that reflects, even aluminum foil is required to prevent the unnecessary injuries of flocks of birds, just out for a last hurrah party!

It is a Fall ritual in the Northern region where I hail.

[Coolwater]

Wow! We occasionally get one or two drunken birds, but never a whole flock - and I've never seen birds defend a food source! :eek:

OK, I posted a couple of cow stories, and they vanished in the posting, so I'll try again.

People underestimate cows. They enjoy getting out; it's like a holiday, so they look for opportunities. And you've heard of someone "hightailing it"? Well, when cows are feeling good, they run around with their tails up in the air. So, cows on vacation hightail and are hard to catch.

The silliest cow chases I've ever seen happened first when I was working on a dairy farm (in the house), and the cows got loose. We chased them but they gave us the slip and ran around the house, chasing the dogs. The side yard of the house had a garden with shrubs around it, making it a bit narrow, and the cows were all jostling each other to get through.

Well, it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, isn't it? One cow got shoved clear through the bushes - and right into the swimming pool!

All the cows stopped and stared. Then they took off again in earnest, tails down. They ran right to the field and in through the open gate, leaving the poor swimming cow mooing in the deep end. It took a lot of coaxing and hefting to get her into the shallow end and up the steps, and that cow was a very meek beastie all the way back to the barn!

The other "cow event" was when we had a neighbor's heifers (teenager cows) boarding in our field. A large new road bed was being graded in front of our house, and the cows discovered an unlatched gate and pushed through. It was noon, and the road workers were sitting in the cabs of their earth movers eating lunch, and the cows didn't see them. So, the naughty cows went up the steep slope onto the new road bed, and began trotting up the road away from home, tails flying.

Well, the road graders were about a quarter mile apart, and when they saw the cows, one of the drivers at the far end decided to play road grader cowboy. He started his engine, and put the grader blade first across the road as a barrier.

The cows stopped and stared, a little uncertain. What to do? Go the other way! So they all turned around and ran more quickly only to be met by two more road graders with their blades blocking the road. The cows all stopped, facing the graders. There was a moment of silence and then one of the drivers revved his engine!

MOOO! All the cows bolted back down the steep side of the road bed toward me, a familiar face. Their tails were all not only down, but tucked. I ran to the gate and flung it wide, and all the cows raced back into the filed, mooing like mad. They got about half an acre back, where they turned to see if they were safe. Not safe from ridicule: the drivers were laughing like mad! Me, too, and I thanked them for their cattle drive!

[Scarpetta]

That was a great story Coolwater. 'Road Grader Cow Herders'.

I think every kid should have some of their growing up years on a working farm.

As a youth I always thought I was overworked, never paid, and I will never be a farmer.

As an adult I realized what damn tired was and thanked my parents for providing that 'work education', and stashing away those dollars, I didn't get at the time, but thought I deserved, for a college education. Never became a full fledged farmer, but the tendancies are still there, with critters, plowing gardens, not fields, and loving dirt!

Now cows? Molly was our only cow that required hand milking and she constantly knocked over the FULL bucket. Never one-quarter, never half, only FULL. She would swat you with her tail, turn to look at you with those big brown eyes that said..."don't you get it, YOU cannot have that milk, not today, not tomarrow...not ever!" I aways dumped the bucket numerous times. Times when I was feeling over confident, and lazy, not dumping it into another pail, even though she had not kicked....yet....she knew when it was full!

A childhood of tears, spilled milk, cussing Molly. Best times ever!

[Coolwater]

Do you suppose Molly could only see the milk when the bucket was full? Her angle wasn't the greatest for seeing underneath her, after all.

I grew up in farm country, and we had about a dozen sheep, but my dad was a biochemist, and only a weekend farmer. The cows weren't ours, except when they needed chasing, and were too young to need milking. We all had chores, of course, but it wasn't the kind of grueling life that farmers have. ("The animals don't go on vacation and neither do we.") None of us were encouraged to become true farmers, although I did work on a race horse farm for a while after college.

Ironically, one of my great grandfathers came to the US because he was a manager for someone else's estate and knew he'd never have a farm of his own in Italy. He didn't have one in the US, either, but his move made it possible for us to grow up in the country on our own place.

[Scarpetta]

I don't know but Molly had great timing. Molly influenced my life. You can change some things that appear inevitable, and to never give up!

Many years of my growing up were spent on a working farm. The works, pigs, cows, bulls, chickens. Hated those damn chickens! Perhaps it was the smell. I got out of cleaning out the coup but candling the eggs was my job, and delivering when not in school. My mom's household budget survived on her 'egg route'. Rural small town . Few years ago!

[Coolwater]

Did you teach Molly not to kick the pail or do you mean that you outfoxed her by switching pails? (solemnly) That was a great lesson, indeed: you learned to think of the bucket as half full rather than half empty.

[Scarpetta]

Teach Molly NOT to kick the pail......oh no. She had been kicking that pail over for years. Nine years old and I learned to adapt! Great lesson. I believe my dad knew she would teach me a thing or two. He always chuckled at my on going adventures with Molly! Have been adapting ever since and chuckling too which usually gets me back on track for most problem solving instances!

Never too early to learn, or too late not to take yourself, or events too seriously.

[Sam]

:D Those were Great stories!!
I hated growing up on that farm. Couldn't wait to leave it behind for the city life. Now I want that farm life back! I miss the wildflowers and the stream that I used to dangle my feet in while writing poetry and short stories.....
I think I learned just how true the saying is : The grass isn't always greener on the other side.:(
Still can't stand the smell of cucumbers or watermelon gum. Getting up at 5:00 am to pick them while they were still wet with dew......made me nauseous! Still does.

I have two new irritations now. One is that they are trying to tax sugar products like they do alcoholic beverages, cigarettes and gas!:mad:

The other is a commercial for a charity who's new campaign ad so closely resembles The Peace Fund that it would be possible for someone to think they were donating to The Peace Fund and NOT be. :(

[Scarpetta]

Southern farm vs Northern farm Sam. Six feet of snow and ropes from the house to the barn. Don't miss that a bit!

Sugar is a culprit for obesity and disease if used too much. We are a society that drinks far too much soda drinks and the like. Some other cultures have realized the health risk and don't have business promoting them. They are wise, and overall citizens a bit healthier. As with cigarettes and alcohol, also health factors involved. Government does try to promote healthy habits of citizens through various agencies, but when the statistics say, not enough are listening, the next deterrent is tax the stuff! Which leads to the political arguments and some saying if individuals get sick, that is their problem not the government....but the sickness has all sorts of repercussions in labor force, health care........you get the picture!

Eat your veggies, a lesson learned on the farm. Don't eat too much red meat. A lesson NOT learned on the farm. Sugar, alcohol in moderation. Cigarettes are killers!

[Sam]

Working in a field when the temps top 100 defrees F. aren't a picnic either.
I guess everything is a trade-off in some form or another.:(

Eat your veggies???? After all those recalls and other incidents?? Sounds more dangerous than sugar to me.:rolleyes:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/21067/cooking_ensures_safe_vegetables_cdc_says/

Taxing my sugar interferes with two of my three basic human rights.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If all the things I enjoy are taken from me....THAT'S NOT LIVING and I'M NOT HAPPY!! ;)

I don't think our govt. should have a say in what we eat and drink. And sugar is a natural sweetener. Artificial sweeteners have been known to cause cancer. My point is that we are all going to die at some point of something. That choice should remain ours.

As for our govt. picking up the cost....well I don't know about your neck of the woods...but here unless you are a child or over the age of 65 the govt. doesn't pick up any costs. :(

[brilliant!MacLeod]

So we are lucky in Germany:people can do whatever they want to their health and the gvt.(i.e. the taxpayer) is going to pay for most of the treatments!
Only if you are selfemployed you have to pay for yourself but you are forced to have an insurance!!
If you can´t afford to have one-the gvt. will pay for it!!

But I couldn´t live without sugar!! What else are we supposed to take as sweetener?
I would never take artificial things,as you said,Sam,they are causing cancer and that will bring a lot more costs for treatment.
They don´t do such a thing here,but they try to make people aware of healthy food.
We don´t need such campaigns--we have Adrian to tell and show us how to live and eat healthy,don´t we?:D

[appeace]

In my humble opinion, its just our govts way of controlling more and more of our lives=socialism=communism. I do not understand why the govt must tax these products when health providers already charge overweight folks, smokers, and folks who have high blood pressure, diabetes, or high cholesterol more in premiums than those who do not. Why cant that be the "punishment" for unhealthy living?
Unfortunately, this higher cost is not going to stop folks from drinking and eating unhealthy items, just as smoking taxes have not cut down on the number of new smokers or increased those who quit. It is my belief that the govt knows this, really does not want anyone to quit these unhealthy habits, and is simply creating yet another way to take your money out of your pocket and put it in their hands to "give away" or "bailout" whom they please.
(Including, Coke, Dr Pepper, Imperial sugar and the rest who could not be "allowed" to fail when we all are forced to become so healthy by the govt!):mad:

[Coolwater]

:confused: What do you mean? I have high cholesterol, and I'm not being charged extra.

[appeace]

Have you given a ins co your info w/out including the high cholesterol and been given a quote?
All I know is that, upon searching for health coverage, I was told by several major medical insurers that I would not qualify for major medical coverage due to my weight and my hubby would not qualify because of his high cholesterol and weight, even though we have never had more than one yearly routine checkup in our 23yr marriage, save having my 2 kids. Therefore, I can only speak from my experience as to the higher cost of health coverage if you are not in perfect physical shape.

[Scarpetta]

Healthcare is high because about 50 Million don't have any health insurace appeace in the US. When an individual without insurance ends up in the hospital, who do you think pays for thousands incurred by the hospital? Those with insurance. Many cannot afford those high rates, on no or small incomes. We have a broken system of healthcare delivery.

Insurance companies are private ventures for profit, and citizens are their means for profit. I wouldn't be so quick to blame government. An overhaul to provide people with affordable insurance is needed and underway.

Social responsibility of government to the citizens they represent is a far cry from the rhetoric of socialism/communism you referenced.

You speak of pre existing conditions that Insurance Companies use in actuary tables used to determine your rate of insurance. They are considering their profit. Not that corporations aren't entitled to profit but including more under single payer would also include more people.

Is there something wrong with that? I don't think so.

Social responsibility is why we have a government. Aren't they there for us?

[Coolwater]

Ah, I see. I have had continuous insurance through my employers, and the year I was unemployed, my husband could get me covered under his insurance (same folks who had ensured me before.

Mind you, I'm one of the folks that can't take statins, so it doesn't do me much good anyway. :rolleyes:

I think Scarpetta is correct. We're going to pay no matter what, so let's pay for better service. If you're self-employed, or are a small business, why shouldn't you be able to have reasonably priced insurance? If you were to end up in the ER with a heart attack, my rates would go up. Wouldn't it be better for me to take that same money that I'm paying in higher rates, give it to the government so that you could have insurance and get you preventive medicine so that you don't have the heart attack in the first place?

[Coolwater]

We were talking about cleaning up after dogs, and I have a little something to add. This morning I took the recycling out. Two weeks of the local paper and the Wall Street Journal, and everything else paper that we generate weighs about 30 pounds. Twice a month I heft the big red official box onto my shoulder and I schlep it to the curb. Then I lug down the smaller blue box of glass, and flit down the blue boxes with the cans and plastic. This morning I was coming out of the garage with the glass, and there is a woman walking her dog, and the dog is getting ready to relieve himself on my big red box!!!

"Please do not let your dog pee on that. I have to pick it up and carry it." I was polite but firm. The woman was looking at me, but she didn't even change expression, let alone apologize. She tugged her dog's leash and they went to the nearest telephone pole and he urinated on that. I watched them walk up the street, and the dog wanted to go to each recycling bin on the block. That seemed to be his usual thing. This time the woman didn't let him do it.

That is disgusting, and I'm very glad that I've always washed after taking out the recycling. But what about putting the heavy boxes on my shoulder??? Against my hair?????

I am so disgusted. The only thing I can think of to do is to wash the boxes, and in the future set them further back in the yard so that the dogs encounter the mail box and would actually have to come into the yard to get to the boxes.

I'll have to call the recycling guys to apologize for the inconvenience. :(

[Scarpetta]

Imagine the recycling guys picking the containers up all day! That lady and any others that allow their pet to do that owe the recycling pick ups and their poor spouses, who have to wash their clothes an apology! ;)

Recycling. Think that dog owner thought the recycling had begun for dog urine, like the astronauts on the space station who are now drinking their own urine....recycled of course!

[appeace]

Yuck! How can a pet owner be so inconsiderate as to allow their pet to do that?:mad:
As to the insurance thing. I realize that everyone pays for those who do not have insurance. The majority of those, in Texas anyway, are illegals who do not belong here in the first place. (But thats a whole other bag of worms!)
My point was, since the insurance companies already "punish", by higher premiums, those who are "unhealthy", why now does the govt feel it necessary to "punish" everyone by taxing foods and drinks that people, who are healthy as well as those who are not, enjoy??
I still believe this plan has less to do with "forcing" people to be healthy than it does with generating cash for the govt to spend as it sees fit. In other words, it is simply a way for the govt to take my hard earned dollars out of my pocket and give to the govt without putting it to a vote.
Im sorry, but I have lived a good portion of my life without health insurance, Which meant I did not go to the ER for a cold, or the flu, or a minor scrape or cut because I knew I could not afford it. The only time I had a true emergency I paid that bill starting with 10.00 per month increments until I paid the total out. Yes, it took many years, working two jobs, and lots of putting aside things I wanted, and even sometimes needed, but it got done.
Therefore, if you mean by "Socially Responsible Govt" those millions of people who sit on their butts with their hands out expecting the govt to hand them everything at my expense, Im sorry but no I do not agree. I live in a very modest home which my hubby and I can afford to pay for eventhough, I could have qualified for a much larger loan and a much bigger home. I dont even own a car, only my hubby does, but we can pay for that one. We dont have gym memberships or weekly trips to the salon because we cant afford it. We cant even afford to pay for our 2 kids college, but we are supposed to be happy for the govt to steal our hard earned money in the form of taxes and give it to those who may not even belong in this country or may not be willing to work a minimum wage job or who bought a home they knew they couldnt afford if one single thing in their finances went wrong?--Please
My family all thru the generations, like most American families, worked hard, saved a little and took care of themselves without "expecting" handouts from the govt and that spirit, in my humble opinion, is what is diminishing the greatness from this country. Another thing that is diminishing this country, in my opinion, is the govts practiced idea of "forced charity" which is exactly, once again in my humble opinion, what is happening with the govt bailouts.
We, as individuals and as citizens of America, can no longer afford to be the generous, caring, "roll up your sleeves and pitch in", "help in times of trouble" folks this nation was known for because the govt is sucking up every last penny it can from us which leaves us with nothing extra to give someone in need. We no longer decide who is in need, the govt picks and chooses for us. We no longer decide how much we can help out with, the govt decides how much money it will "allow" us to live on and it will take the rest.
In my opinion, and I know I will be branded a "terrorist threat" by expressing my opinion, however, this is socialism/communism at its birth and Democracy at its death:(

[Scarpetta]

I'm sorry you haven't been able to afford health insurance for most of your life appeace. But I am glad that you have not (or you didn't say) any major health care emergency.

Some aren't so lucky. I know a couple people that their bills after heart attacks, the other cancer had expenses over $100,000. Scary.

Do you feel punished that proposals like increasing health care for people much like you and your family is being considered?

The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation.

The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care.

Funding of the defense industry is socialized defense. Don't hear a lot of objections to that.

Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system .

There are close to 50 Million people without any health insurance, many of those are children. Many are like you and me. They find premiums for Private health insurance extremely high and can't purchase it. Be it not enough wages, illness (pre-existing conditions) perhaps loss of job.

Would you characterize ALL people in that 50 million men, women and children as: "those millions of people who sit on their butts with their hands out expecting the govt to hand them everything at my expense."


Private for profit corporations are the least efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.

You must not approve of Social Security either, the safety net for US citizens? Wall Street could have done better with those funds? Hmmmmm.


As for the greed of some that lead to a global financial problem, maybe tarring and feathering them? Wonder what would have happened if government had not intervened and we had had a global financial meltdown.

You are entitled to your opinion but Democracy is a resilient thing, and the US Democracy is alive and well.

[appeace]

As I explained previously, I have had a medical emergency without medical coverage and it took me years to repay the debt.
Yes, I do resent money being taken out of my pocket to pay for medical care for those who use the ER as a drs office because they know they cannot be refused treatment, even for a non-emergency illness and do not care that the expense triples what the cost would be to those who do carry insurance.

Yes, I do resent govt siphoning of my money to pay for medical care for illegals in this country. Yes, I do resent govt addition of taxes to the things I enjoy eating and drinking in order to provide health care for those who "use" the system so they dont have to work at whatever job is available to them.

Yes, I do resent the govt telling me, by levying of taxes, what I can eat, drink, smoke (I dont smoke), so that people who either don not deserve, or should not even be in this country, can take advantage of my and my hard working hubbys earnings.
Perhaps if the govt would keep its hands out of my pockets, I could afford to pay for my kids college, or buy myself a car. Perhaps if the govt quit taking money from us and giving it to whom they please, the people I mentioned above would find whatever jobs they had available to them and become productive members of society or go back to their homeland and try to fix problems there.
Most of all, if the govt would keep its hands out of our pockets, we could then CHOOSE to, or not to, help those in need. We could CHOOSE how much, or how little, we could assist. As of now, we have lost the right to choose.

As to polls---I NEVER look at them as they are subject to being configured to the beliefs of the pollsters. If a majority of Dems were polled, then that view is the out come and the opposite holds true. I can only ascertain from the stories I have read and the customers from other countries which have Universal Health Care that I talk to, it isnt all that great. I have been told that many people die before seeing a dr or receiving a needed treatment and, of course, taxes are ridiculously high.

Do you want the govt, in their infinite wisdom--lol, to tell you what dr you will see, when you will be allowed to see him, what treatment you may or may not receive, and ultimately whether you are worth keeping alive or, if you do not meet the govt criteria, being left to die? You want our cheating, lying, stealing, worried only about where the money is going, govt to make those decisions for you?---Not me-----

It is my opinion that the problem with health care affordability is that everyone from drs to insurers have become insanely greedy just like the big oil companies, home and auto insurers, everybody. I think, if left alone, the whole economy will implode and then we can start from scratch. It will be desperately difficult; but after all, who is going to buy insurance when we are all broke from being taxed to death?
Who is going to go to the dr when all of us have no money to pay the exorbitant prices? When the drs have no patients, they will begin accepting monthly payments, like they used to do before the invention of insurance.
When stores have no customers because we cannot afford credit, they will begin accepting monthly payments (layaway or store credit) like they used to do, and so on.....
Or they will all go out of business and Americans will do bartering amongst themselves, go back to things that really matter such as farming, ranching, growing gardens, sewing, teaching and other things which are a necessity and we will survive. Those who are here illegally will leave because the "gravy train" they have been exploiting for years will be gone. If folks have a medical emergency, the drs and hospitals will have to be willing to work with the patients on payments---or they will have no patients and will be out of business. Perhaps we might even have a simpler way, a simpler, time and be better for it.
Who knows, perhaps drs will even make house calls again:rolleyes:
I appreciate your respectful disagreement with my opinion and I respectfully disagree with yours. In my humble opinion, our Democracy is being stolen from us in bits and pieces everyday by our own govt, both Dem and Rep:(

[Coolwater]

appeace, this is The Punching Bag, and you're free to speak your mind here!

[appeace]

Thanks, Cool. I appreciate it. I do have to be very careful of "speaking my mind" as Im afraid that soon there wont be enough left!;)
Is already getting bad---quick!:p

[Sam]

;) Very cool how you handled the dog lady Cool! That is what we need to do more of. You made your request in such a way that even though she didn't like being called on it...she had no choice but to respect it.

First before giving my opinion I have to remind you all that I am NEITHER a Democrat or Republican.
I'm going to have to agree with Appeace on most points here. But we do disagree on some points.
In order to fix what is wrong we do have to get rid of people who are in this country illegally and give these jobs back to the citizens of this country! As much as we would like to fix the problems of other country...that is up to those countries and their citizens. I have been turned down for a farming job because I was NOT an immigrant and therefore the owner of the farm said he feared for my safety. He said he himself would not go into his own fields without a gun for protection so he could not leave me out there to work without one. I asked for the job because it paid double of what my wages were at that time. These workers were the same people coming into the store I worked at who pulled out a handfull of money big enough to choke a horse and then pay with a govt. foodstamp card! We have to stop allowing illegal immigrants to drain our govt. resources by using laws setup to protect minorities who are American citizens.
I have seen some decline in the numbers lately but only because immigration has occassionally rounded up some.
Then we can overhaul our systems. We can have more jobs for the unemployed. Put people back to work who can work. With govt. health care we can get more people who are out of work for health reasons so more people can pay in. The more people who get healthy and stay healthy and pay in...the lower the costs. And in doing so we can virtually eliminate the Welfare system entirely. SO that is govt. tax dollars saved! It will also cut out the need for Medicare and Medicaid. So instead of those dollars being taken from your check every month for those programs it will simply be taken for the new govt. health care. You will no longer have to pay the continuously increasing insurance premiums. And should you become too elderly or ill to work (at which time you will lose your job and no longer be able to afford your insurance premiums) you will still have the medical care you need. We can then eliminate some of the money we pay for govt. employment services by overhauling it. Because it no longer really serves it's purpose either. The only purpose it serves now days is to file unemployment claims or make someone sit in a class for hours watching video how-to tapes to tell people what they should already know...which is to put on your best look and act so you have a better chance at a job OR that you need to change your field of work.
We don't need to tax everything to death and make new laws. We just need to enforce the laws we already have and overhaul a system that is broken.
Now I think if you figure the cost cuts I mentioned...you will find that everyone will benefit. And like Appeace not being able to get the high paying jobs with benefits and paying my bills as she has I too am among those uninsured. But here they DO send the uninsured home to die when faced with illness.

We have a saying here : "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
While it is a good to educate people on how to be healthy...forcing someone to do so is NOT the right of this or any govt.

[Scarpetta]

It does seem to me that 'overhauling the system' is an issue with several, but how one goes about that is clearly lacking.

Getting jobs back from the immigrants Sam. You mean the businesses with the tax incentives that LEFT US soil for more profitable pastures? Those jobs? That has been a key point in legislative action of late.

I'm not sure that I follow appeace in that everyone w/o insurance uses an ER for the reasons she states. Because they can w/o consideration of NEED. If I had a child with what appeared to be a broken limb, with or w/o insurance I would head to the hospital ER. If I had an asthma attack, and breathing was next to non existent, I would go to the ER, with or w/o insurance. Chest pain, unexplained, I would go w/o insurance or with to the ER.

Appeace mentioned 'government paying for illegals medical care'. It is a factor with PRIVATE HOSPITALS, but for the government to be a part of that objection you would have to get an illegal on Medicaid?Welfare issue? Better talk to your State. Know of any illegal on Fed Medicaid?

As for taxes, they usually provide services for the State, Municipality, or Fed. Nothing comes to mind like, roads, bridges.....?

Appeace paints a very bleak picture of collapse. Where an who influences that idea?

Sam, you are blaming immigration and more expressly illegal immigration for MOST of the ills of society? Solve it and the world becomes a better place? Solving it might mean increased aid to those Countries. Could you live with that?

Currently Medicare and Medicaid and Welfare are Government programs. Some State/Fed joint ventures. Eliminate them? Medicare serves those over 65. Medicaid serves young and old, even nursing home stays. Welfare. Choosing poverty is not what I think most would choose. Some have few options. The Health Care proposals in Congress now apparently are joint efforts of Private Gov't mandated plans that use Numbers signed up to reduce cost. I still think a single payer is better.

As for the other Countries not liking their Universal Health Care. Aside from glitches that you have to admit, our Care for Profit system is one major glitch, those countries are pretty satisfied. I would beg to differ with appeace. Anyone from Canada or UK here, perhaps Germany?

I think both Sam and Appeace are good citizens. I just don't agree with you that the issues are as easily solved as you both think.

Perhaps it is a matter of looking at things through different lenses. I don't look at government forcing me to do anything. Many things just encourage me to understand more fully the issue.

[Sam]

No Scarpetta illegals are NOT the SOUL problem. But they ARE a MAJOR portion of it.
I think our POV differences on this is more than likely a regional one.
Appeace and I have both seen countless illegals being given jobs (such as farming, convience stores, marketing and sales, food services and others..) while those same employers are turning away American citizens. We have seen first hand that they are being given food stamps and Welfare checks when deserving Americans are being turned away. They are bringing their sick and elderly here and getting Free medical care here in our emergency rooms for minor illnesses and injuries while American citizens who are uninsured with life threatening illnesses are being turned away.
Universal health care would allow doing away with medicare and medicaid as well as private health insurance costs. The money we now pay for those could go to paying for universal health care.
What about car insurance and states which force us to have it? Yes it is common sense to have it but....with universal health care the money going to insurance companies for medical care would no longer be needed so that money could also go to paying for universal health care.
;) I think you are a really good person too Scarpetta. And I respect your opinions too. And I'm glad that you will openly express and discuss them with us. It gives us all a chance to learn about life and the differences we experience in it.

[Coolwater]

It may be regional. Here in the midwest, the ilegados have the jobs no one else wants, but here the pay is not being kept artificially low as you have said it is where you live, Sam. The pay is poor, most of the work is seasonal, and the living quarters are miserable and unhealthy.

As for getting rid of them, have you forgotten the kicking and screaming when the Bush administration clamped down and sent so many of the ilegados home? The folks who had employed them began howling that they were unable to find citizens to do the work, and that when they did, the required levels of pay and benefits were costing the businessmen more than they could afford. Some of the worst screaming came from the farms in Texas, appeace.

[Scarpetta]

IF what you say is true then States have either adopted different rules than Federal or those 'illegals' you saw just might be here legally. Neither of us can make that determination obviously.

This from the Immigration Lawyers Association:

MYTH #3: The nation spends billions of dollars on welfare for undocumented immigrants.

FACTS: To the contrary, undocumented immigrants are not eligible to receive any "welfare" benefits and even legal immigrants are severely restricted in the benefits they can receive.

As the Congressional Research Service points out in a 2007report, undocumented immigrants, who comprise nearly one-third of all immigrants in the country, are not eligible to receive public "welfare" benefits -- ever.

Legal permanent residents (LPRs) must pay into the Social Security and Medicare systems for approximately 10 years before they are eligible to receive benefits when they retire. In most cases, LPRs can not receive SSI, which is available only to U.S. citizens, and are not eligible for means-tested public benefits until 5 years after receiving their green cards.

As for the jobs. There has been an ongoing crackdown on Employers that hire them. That seems to be one method to deter, amongst many.

Car insurance? Liability by all means. Medical could save your life and your assets.

We ALL are very fortunate to live in Western civilizations. I'm blessed to be born in the US. Many countries can't even discuss what we do, and hold wide and diverse opinions.

Healthcare is going to change in the next year and how it shakes out whether it is a private with public option compared to what we now have it will be an improvement.

Have a great Memorial Day Weekend ALL.

How is Sea World in San Antonio Appeace? Meeting my kids and grandchildren there.

[appeace]

Tho I have never been to SeaWorld, I have heard it is great! Have fun take plenty of water and a HUGE can of mosquito spray!:rolleyes:

[Coolwater]

Well, as Sea World Florida is a blast, and as the rest of San Antonio is wonderful, I expect you all will have a very nice time, Petta!

[waltersv]

Back to the solving the woes of our country, of which I am not even going to try. But I agree with Coolwater regarding the illegals; in this part of the country (northeast), illegals are brought in to work jobs that employers cannot fill otherwise. Employers are being watched to make sure they are going through the proper channels, and are fined when they don't.
It seems to me that some people, nowadays, think manual labor is below them, and wouldn't be caught dead out working "in the field". I personally believe we've spoiled the daylights out of our young people, and they want the cushy high-paying jobs, not something they actually have to "work" for. Young people want to be entertained, and expect work to be fun. It' s definitely a generation thing - I can see that within my own family - how my husband and I were raised (on farms), versus how our kids were raised - not on farms. Yet we expect them to have the same work ethic we were taught, although in all fairness, it was more a way of life, than anything.
As to the medical issues, I wouldn't be too fast to blame the Drs., or even the hospitals. I've worked in the dental field for over 20 years, and I've seen the changes the offices have had to make, because of the insurance companies. Insurance companies really run the show - approving what treatment can be done, and when. It has nothing to do with what is best for the patient. The same holds true for Drs. in our area. There are no "private practices" anymore. The Drs. are part of group practices, which are divisions of hospital affiliations. Just a few years ago, you couldn't go to a specialist without a referral from your personal physician. That, thankfully, is changing, and folks can pretty much go to whoever they want. But because of the hospital affiliations, that may determine which hospital you go to.
In the dental offices, I'm seeing more and more of them dropping the insurances, and not participating with them. As a result, other avenues are being offered to patients to pay for their treatment. Don't know if that will work for hospital stays - there's a big difference in paying for a crown, versus by-pass surgery!

[Scarpetta]

waltersv said: There are no "private practices" anymore. The Drs. are part of group practices, which are divisions of hospital affiliations. Just a few years ago, you couldn't go to a specialist without a referral from your personal physician. That, thankfully, is changing, and folks can pretty much go to whoever they want. But because of the hospital affiliations, that may determine which hospital you go to.

That depends on your Insurance. Insurances use 'network Dr's' that agree to certain charges and other criteria. If the Dr. you want is not w/i the 'Network' you may have to use another that you may not be that familiar with. Some Dr's choose not to sign as a 'network physician' with some Insurance Companies because that insurance company may have in their fine print, certain tests that are not covered that the Dr. may feel MIGHT be in his arsenal of available tools. Allowing the Insurance Company to determine the 'practice' is wrong. The Medical Professional is the one, dealing with the individual patient is the only one qualified to determine, when and what should be done for diagnostic or management of disease or injury.

As for the Dentist. He/she is the one that SHOULD determine proper care, not an Insurance Company. For instance flouride treatment for adults. Some insurance companies only allow that for children. I believe Dental Association determines some adults with little or NO enamel benefit by those semi-annual applications of flouride. I will take that flouride ap anyday rather than a cavity!

Crowns. Can anyone afford those without insurance or a bank loan?

[waltersv]

Scarpetta, I just started a new job this week in an office that specializes in cosmetic dentistry. If you think crowns are expensive, you should see what people are paying for "beautiful smiles"! You could buy a car for what these people are paying! By the way, some of them are getting bank loans. It surprises me, as this isn't a truly affluent area, either. The office has noticed a bit of a decrease due to the economy, but not by much. Amazing.

It just depends on what priorities people have. On the other hand, I placed my bed & breakfast up for sale this week, as I couldn't compete with the big hotel chains. Even though there is definitely a clientele for B & B's, it wasn't enough - I'm not located in a destination area. I tried it, loved it, but time to move on. So I'm back out of retirement, and looking at teeth again! Agh!

[Scarpetta]

B&B ownership sounds like much work, but those I know who have them absolutely love it. Sorry you couldn't keep up with the Big Hotels. When the B&B 'niche' is good, it is very, very good.

As for dentistry comparing costs even for rather simple procedures is rather high.

A picture perfect smile may be very important in many business and other professional endeavors.

With prices like these, you do have to have your priorities.

The cost of porcelain veneers varies from $975 per veneer up to $2200 per veneer, depending on the area of the country. The cost of all-porcelain crowns is about the same as the cost of porcelain veneers in most expert cosmetic dentistry offices and varies from $950 per crown up to $2200.

The cost of white fillings for back teeth is charged according to the number of surfaces covered by the fillings. For a one-surface filling, fees range from $150 to $250. For two surfaces, the cost is $200 to $400. For three surfaces, expect to pay from $250 to $500.

The cost for bonding a front tooth, when that bonding involves one of the corners of the tooth, will vary from $300 to $1600. The reason for the great variety in costs is that, even among expert cosmetic dentists there is a great variety in the level of skill and artistry as well as the time spent in these difficult restorations.

The cost for Invisalign invisible braces ranges from $5000 to $7700 for a complete case.

http://www.mynewsmile.com/cosmeticdentistrycosts.htm

I don't think you will ever see a Universal Health Plan include these Dentistry procedures, but there probably will always be those who make the payment to the bank for their teeth just like the mortgage payment!

[waltersv]

You've got that right. Actually, my job depends on it.:)

[Coolwater]

So, lets just say that each household's taxes go up $100. a year in order to provide health insurance for people who are uninsured or under insured. That really stinks, right?

Wrong. It would save each insured household about $1275 a year.

According to a study by Families USA using federal data, health services to the under- and uninsured cost each insured American family an extra $1000. a year. Add to that, if you use the ER, the hospitals are going to pass along an extra $375. in hospital bills that are shifted from under- and uninsured people when they use the emergency room, to us. They just raise the cost of everything from barf bags to no slip booties for the folks with insurance. And they charge the uninsured folks the maximum amount for those same items - as if that stuff really cost that much! So we get to pay that overcharge as well.

Now, that assumes that the insurance companies are watched to make sure that our rates come down, once we no longer have uninsured people. They NEED a good watching.

[Sam]

Things are VERY different here. If they were done here as they are in the states all of you live in it would not be as bad. The state of Georgia follows the beat of it's own drum with little or no reguard to federal laws.
A fwe fake documents are easy for illegals to get and govt. offices here are not trained to know the difference in the forgeries and the real thing. Even when they do know it is fake they will still put the application through.
Bird/swine flu. We have had it! I had it!!! I am still struggling with the after effects. After my third trip back to the doctor he informed me that the medical community here was told not to test for it or diagnose any flu cases as bird/swine flu but to just treat it as they would any other flu. AND this is the state that headquarters the CDC!!!
Look at the recent charts that are out there on states showing an increase in Welfare applicants. Georgia's isn't on there yet it is near the bottom of the list for wages and jobs.
Like I said though...it is a regional thing.:rolleyes:

[appeace]

Yup, sounds like the govt has downplayed the swine flu enough to prevent wide spread panic but that route also causes folks to let down their guard and become less vigilant about taking proper preventative measures.
The number of new cases is on the increase in Texas and the number of deaths continue to rise nationwide, but the govt/media continues to state that this flu is not as dangerous as the regular yearly flu.
My prayers for your speedy recovery, Sam.

Just a thought on illegals working here in the South--
Americans would take those "laborious" jobs if they could get paid in cash, not pay taxes, show no income so they would qualify for welfare and food stamps and use hospitals as drs offices while not paying for services. Thereby, the Americans would have their housing paid for and their utilities paid for and their food paid for and could then make a living for their families as the illegals do.
Illegals would not take these same jobs if they were paid via payroll check with taxes taken out and their income reported via social sec which would then disqualify them for welfare as they would make too much income. They would not be able to support their families, just as Americans can not, on minimum wage and would not be able to send billions of dollars back to Mexico or, India or anywhere else.

[Scarpetta]

Yup, sounds like the govt has downplayed the swine flu enough to prevent wide spread panic but that route also causes folks to let down their guard and become less vigilant about taking proper preventative measures.
The number of new cases is on the increase in Texas and the number of deaths continue to rise nationwide, but the govt/media continues to state that this flu is not as dangerous as the regular yearly flu.
My prayers for your speedy recovery, Sam.

Just a thought on illegals working here in the South--
Americans would take those "laborious" jobs if they could get paid in cash, not pay taxes, show no income so they would qualify for welfare and food stamps and use hospitals as drs offices while not paying for services. Thereby, the Americans would have their housing paid for and their utilities paid for and their food paid for and could then make a living for their families as the illegals do.
Illegals would not take these same jobs if they were paid via payroll check with taxes taken out and their income reported via social sec which would then disqualify them for welfare as they would make too much income. They would not be able to support their families, just as Americans can not, on minimum wage and would not be able to send billions of dollars back to Mexico or, India or anywhere else.

Your last paragraph begs the question......Employers should be held accountable? Many, many non US citizens working at some of those jobs ARE paying the taxes and ARE paying into the Social Security Plan beefing IT up so YOU can draw.

When you paint a picture have all the facts. You have painted it too broadly. Please check . You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own 'facts'. Sorry.

[Coolwater]

I agree. Illegals get paid next to nothing because they are illegal. Who can they complain to when they get stiffed? They sure aren't making minimum wage. I think Petta is right: why not go after the employers who are skipping out on the benefits and taxes, and paying the illegal aliens less because they can?

But the other side of the story is that there was an report on CBS that showed that when INS rounded up the illegados working in a plant in the Midwest, the plant couldn't fill it's orders and folded. The local economy had relied on the illegal aliens and now the community wants them back.


When I worked at a medical center that specialized in indigent care IN TEXAS, when we had illegados, we didn't apply for the funds we did for the residents and the legal aliens. We treated them, though, for free and using samples, because they were ill and deserved to be treated like human beings, and because when sick people don't get help for fear of INS, then disease spreads when it could be stopped. I think we did the right thing.

[appeace]

Making up facts??? Not so! I have worked both in the landscape business as the office manager who was made to pay those illegals in cash and in the ranch business as a office manager who's job required me not only pay them in cash but to also provide transport for them to the welfare office to get them set up with welfare.
If the illegals are paying taxes, then how do they pay their rent, utilities, food and living expenses and STILL have hundreds of dollars to send to their native countries on minimum wage___Hummmmmm????
If they are non-legals how do they pay taxes????--no SS #.
I have seen the business owners pay the "coyote" to get them here and hide them from INS. YES, I do blame the businesses who perpetuate this illness on society. However, if there were no illegals to hire, the businesses would be forced to pay a descent wage for that hard labor and an American citizen could provide for his/her family on that wage.
The fact remains that ALL illegals are just that--illegal, and as such, are criminals. I would wonder how those who have patiently waited and worked to become legal citizens think about those who dont but are allowed to live off the rest of us???
Therefore, please do not basically accuse me of lying unless you have been in my shoes--thank you.

I do agree with you Cool. If those without ins can be treated with samples and the cost of paying the dr or hosp would not be passed down to those of us who work, pay taxes and pay for our ins would be a wonderful thing.
However, that is not what I see. Its not the treating illegals I protest but I protest my having to pay for their treatment, housing, food, and utilities when they make a salary but pay little or no taxes and no ins premiums to cover themselves.

I have always said the beginning of changing this situation lies in Mexico or India or where ever their homeland is. If things are so bad there, then these folks need to go home and change things as we had to do here in the early days of this country. Go home, vote, protest, run for office--make changes in their own native land instead of draining us.

[Scarpetta]

Making up facts??? Not so! I have worked both in the landscape business as the office manager who was made to pay those illegals in cash and in the ranch business as a office manager who's job required me not only pay them in cash but to also provide transport for them to the welfare office to get them set up with welfare.
If the illegals are paying taxes, then how do they pay their rent, utilities, food and living expenses and STILL have hundreds of dollars to send to their native countries on minimum wage___Hummmmmm????
If they are non-legals how do they pay taxes????--no SS #.
I have seen the business owners pay the "coyote" to get them here and hide them from INS. YES, I do blame the businesses who perpetuate this illness on society. However, if there were no illegals to hire, the businesses would be forced to pay a descent wage for that hard labor and an American citizen could provide for his/her family on that wage.
The fact remains that ALL illegals are just that--illegal, and as such, are criminals. I would wonder how those who have patiently waited and worked to become legal citizens think about those who dont but are allowed to live off the rest of us???
Therefore, please do not basically accuse me of lying unless you have been in my shoes--thank you.

I do agree with you Cool. If those without ins can be treated with samples and the cost of paying the dr or hosp would not be passed down to those of us who work, pay taxes and pay for our ins would be a wonderful thing.
However, that is not what I see. Its not the treating illegals I protest but I protest my having to pay for their treatment, housing, food, and utilities when they make a salary but pay little or no taxes and no ins premiums to cover themselves.

I have always said the beginning of changing this situation lies in Mexico or India or where ever their homeland is. If things are so bad there, then these folks need to go home and change things as we had to do here in the early days of this country. Go home, vote, protest, run for office--make changes in their own native land instead of draining us.

Perhaps you should have turned in your employer?

I'm sure your experience is as you said. You said it. Wherever you are does not mean it works exactly that way in every State.

I suppose doing the later in your statement would be easier if they had any money. Vote, protest and run for office.

I did not accuse you of lying. I just know that the circumstances you relate do not apply everywhere. Period.

Peace.

[appeace]

Yes, Scarpettta. I do agree with you that circumstances are not the same in every state, thus the for tense---Illegals in the South. Perhaps, I should have narrowed that to Illegals in Texas.
I just wish that those who want criminals to have all the benefits accorded to American citizens would stand in line at the welfare office with their wallets open and leave mine ALONE:eek::rolleyes:

[Coolwater]

But you'll have to narrow it further than that, because my Texas experiences were very different from yours app. I saw no benefits paid to illegals, and no good wages. Are you sure the folks you saw getting paid weren't Mexican American citizens? People often think that folks who are Hispanic and a heavy accent or who speak Border must be illegados.

[Scarpetta]

Benefits paid to illegals....would be illegal.

I do agree with Coolwater here. Observations may not be all they seem. Stories have a way of becoming embellished
as they are retold, and truth is sacrificed.

I was talking to a son whose circumstance reminded me of a statement appeace made. I have always said the beginning of changing this situation lies in Mexico or India or where ever their homeland is.

The India caught my eye. His company has offered an option for layoff. A move to India! Seems as though our talent is going in that direction more than we would like.

[Coolwater]

Yes. American Industry is always searching for cheaper labor, and ultimately it means no industry here at all.

[appeace]

"I do agree with Coolwater here. Observations may not be all they seem. Stories have a way of becoming embellished
as they are retold, and truth is sacrificed."

You can accuse me (however vailed) of telling lies as you wish. It will not change the truth as to my experience and I will not supine to your attacks.
Mexican Americans have no need for their boss to pay a coyote to bring them here, and whether legal or not, a great deal of them are paid in cash to allow the non-payment of taxes and other benefits by both the illegals and the company as the company knows it is very unlikely they will be caught---who is going to report them?? The illegal who depends on that company for its pay and who would, in all likely hood be deported, would be unlikely to report the company and the company would be most unlikely to report itself and face the fines and damage its gravy train of cheap labor.

I just LOVE the liberal left's answer to folks who express an opinion or facts contrary to their own---just accuse those opposing folks of telling lies and all will "just go away"--Humph!

[Coolwater]

Why is it that when we disagree with you, you accuse us of calling you a liar?

Your experiences with illegal labor and how the Mexicans are treated is such a bad match to mine that I am trying to find some explanation that will reconcile the two accounts.

If I thought you were lying, I wouldn't bother.

I think that rather than continuing to stir up bad blood, I'm going to offer you my hand in peace, and agree to disagree, if that is OK with you?

[Sam]

Here's just a few things I came across and thought some of you might find interesting.

http://cbs5.com/national/illegal.immigrants.illegal.2.267350.html

http://www.topix.com/news/immigration/2009/05/why-are-illegal-aliens-on-u-s-welfare

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-01-01-public-housing_N.htm

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/june132007/immigrant_raid_61307.php

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/88153.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,172070,00.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBiKD3tF4I

http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
ROBERT RECTOR, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, assuming that we have about 11 million immigrants in the U.S., the net cost or the total cost of services and benefits provided to them, education, welfare, general social services would be about $90 billion a year, and they would pay very little in taxes. It's important to remember that at least half of illegal immigrants are high school dropouts.

The National Academy of Sciences told us 10 years ago that a dropout immigrant imposes net cost on the taxpayer, that's services given over the cost of taxes paid of about $100,000 over the course of his lifetime. In the last 20 years or so since through both legal and illegal immigration, we've imported about 11 million high school dropouts. The net cost of those individuals over their lifetimes to the taxpayers will be about $2 trillion. We simply cannot afford as a nation to bring in millions and millions of low-skill individuals who will eat up government services, but pay virtually nothing in taxes.

DOBBS: Robert Rector, thank you very much. Many of the burdens of illegal immigration are lost in the dialogue. There are benefits. There are benefits as well to illegal immigration, but they tend to be relatively narrow. There are other views on that and those are views that we're going to get here -- get to tonight because there are those who advocate illegal immigration, amnesty and it's important that we all understand that while this is a human problem and one in which I think all of our hearts go out to the people who are impoverished around the world. More than 5 million people living in poverty. That in and of itself is not satisfactory rationalization for illegal immigration and the continuation of policies that do little to solve the problem.

We'll hear more from this audience about this important issue throughout the broadcast. Up next, alarming new evidence of the anarchy and the rising violence along our southern border with Mexico, violence that's spreading deeper into the United States. The chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Investigations, Congressman Michael McCaul joins us here.

We'll continue with this town hall meeting from San Antonio, Texas in one minute. Stay with us.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Welcome back to San Antonio, Texas, our special town hall meeting, "Broken Borders".

And as we look around this room there are almost as many viewpoints on these issues as there are people in this room and certainly we can add to that if we go outside the doors of the Empire Theater here, but let's look at some facts.

Last year 1.2 million illegal aliens were stopped at our southern border with Mexico. Most of those illegal aliens were from Mexico, and according to the border patrol, for every illegal alien apprehended three successfully enter the United States. That means perhaps as many as three million illegal aliens succeed in entering the country, but also an increasing number from countries known to sponsor terrorism are making it into this country.

They're called OTMs, other than Mexico. Last year U.S. border patrol agents apprehended 155,000 people from countries other than Mexico. The general estimate is that for every person apprehended at our borders, as I said, three get through. The math on that number is particularly disturbing. The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, for example, has studied criminal illegal aliens and studied those aliens who have been deported after they had served time in the Los Angeles county jails.

That study revealed that 70 percent of those illegal aliens were re-arrested again -- arrested, in fact, four more times. The Drug Enforcement Administration says $25 billion in drug money crosses our border with Mexico each and every year. Some estimates put it as high as 40 billion. Eighty percent of the methamphetamines in this country, 70 to 90 percent of the cocaine, virtually all of the marijuana smuggled into the United States comes from across our southern border with Mexico.

Violent battles between Mexican drug cartels along our southern border are now spreading into the United States. A recent congressional report shows Mexican drug traffickers have achieved shocking levels of sophistication and effectiveness. The report, for the first time, reveals that Hezbollah terrorists have already crossed the Mexican border into the United States.

Joining me now is the congressman who authored the study, Michael McCaul. He's a member of the Homeland Security Committee. He is chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Investigations and it's his subcommittee that produced this shocking report.

Congressman, it's great to have you here.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R), TEXAS: Welcome (INAUDIBLE) to Texas.

DOBBS: Well thank you. I appreciate it. It's -- the difficulty with this report is to imagine that in 2006, five years after September 11, our borders are insecure. That affects, of course, our vulnerability to global terrorism. That our borders are insecure because it leaves us vulnerable to illegal immigration that runs unchecked and horrifyingly, to the drug violence and the drugs that are being imported into this country from Mexico. It's shocking. MCCAUL: You know after September the 11th, this is really a national security issue, first and foremost. We do not know who is coming into this country. As we found after a year of investigations, the drug cartels have never been more powerful or more violent and they are exporting drugs and crime and human trafficking. We know the numbers of special interest aliens, OTMs as you referred to.

DOBBS: Right.

MCCAUL: ... have tripled, actually over 40 percent since September the 11th, and I think the ultimate nightmare scenario that every member of Congress stays awake at night, at least I do, is God forbid a weapon of mass destruction is used to cross into our borders through these corridors that the cartels control.

IMO Illegal is Illegal! Yes some illegals are treated in an inhumane way. This does Greatly disturb me. But they need to accept reponsibility for the fact that they chose to break our laws by coming here and in doing so that is sadly one of the results. And my views are not only about just Mexicans or Hispanics but ALL Illegals.
But I have to agree to disagree on this subject also because I believe our environment and our experiences in it greatly shape our opinions on these types of situations. I leave this topic a more enlightened person but am still unable to change my mind about the matter.
Peace and much Respect to my fellow debators.

[appeace]

I was not referring to you, Cool as it was not your words I found to be accusatory and I do support everyone's right to their interpretation of facts. I just wish everyone believed that instead of expressing thinly veiled accusations accusing others of lying or embellishing.

I do realize the problems incurred by the flood of illegals into this country vary greatly depending on such things as, location, lifestyle, etc.
However, I do not appreciate vailed suggestions that I am mis-representing facts from my own experiences, nor that
"Observations may not be all they seem. Stories have a way of becoming embellished
as they are retold, and truth is sacrificed. "

However, since it appears that only one view of this debate is going to be allowed without personal attack, and for the sake of PEACE and friendships I greatly value here, and always knowing everyone is entitled to an opinion based on their own experiences---I quit.

[Scarpetta]

I believe the misunderstanding is with me.

I did say that not ALL States and experiences were the same as Appeace's experience. The observation she made was that her job required her to provide transport to the welfare office for signing them up. Cool also related her experience that she saw no benefits paid to illegals, and no good wages.

Again, my observation was that a generalized statement that ALL Illegals qualify for welfare probably was an observation that could not be accurately substantiated.

It is my understanding that the welfare offices operating in states are considering those applicants WHO HAVE CHILDREN BORN IN THE US. It is not the applicant but the children's benefits. Others, by observation take this as a generalized observation that ALL ILLEGALS ARE ON WELFARE. Thus my observation and opinion that this in fact is embellishment.

As for appeace. I veiled nothing, I related your experience, as an honest one, doing WHAT your employer told you to do, take them to a Welfare Office. If they secured Welfare then were they all illegals, did they in fact have children born in the US, or does your State have laws most of us are not familiar with?

Information, gets distorted when all the facts are not known. That could be the case.

As for Illegal Immigration, years and years of not getting a handle on it have created a very large problem. The solution is not as simple as some have suggested like 'sending them all back'. That, would be an easy answer, but economicallyand with humane being what America has always stood for, not a perfect solution. Visions of cattle cars, stocked with 12 Million people heading South, not practical and far from humane. The other problem is the children born in the US, who are US citizens according to our laws, could stay, their parents could not. Many have been here for many, many years. The USA is home. Some served in Iraq, being allowed fast track to citizenship, a nudge to extremely out dated immigration laws that many Presidents, even John F. Kennedy knew required redoing, but none have ever been able to do.

The USA is the “fourth largest Spanish speaking country in the world” and is predicted to be the second largest by 2010.

The solution is not simple, and its approach must be made with level heads.

I'm sorry this 'lefty' offended you. It was not my intention.

[Coolwater]

:eek: Did you just use left-handed in a perjorative sense?? Why, I'm offended! How sinister of you! ;)

[Scarpetta]

:eek: Did you just use left-handed in a perjorative sense?? Why, I'm offended! How sinister of you! ;)

I dunno...I'm still looking up perjorative! :D