Lest we forget

[waltersv]

Recently, on an outing with "the girls", we took a little day trip to Somerset County, PA. This is where the Flight 93 Memorial is from 9/11 - the plane that was headed to DC when the passengers took over. This is maybe an hour from where I live yet it was the first time I had visited the sight. The plane actually was visible that day, flying over our area, following the highway at maybe 600 ft.
The official memorial is still in the drawing stage, although they plan to start construction this fall. But it is worth a visit, if anyone ever gets a chance. The cockpit and voice recorders were recovered, so the transcripts are there for visitors to read. If anyone ever doubts what we are doing in the Middle East, you need to read these transcripts. I don't know how human beings can be so cold-blooded. What the terrorists did that day,to all passengers, was beyond inhuman - they have a mindset that is just incomprehensible.
I know it is so easy to get swallowed up by our everyday lives, but I do believe at times that our country has forgotten already the horrors of that day. Me thinks our president needs to do a day trip, too. Lest he forget.

[appeace]

I totally agree. My brother was working at the nuke plant not 20 miles from the site on that horrible day and they were on lock-down thinking they were the target.
However, I will not visit the memorial unless the land owners and the govt come to a fair and equitable decision as to the land which the site is to be built on.
I cannot imagine those patriotic American heroes would support the government they died to protect, taking away the rights of Americans and grabbing hundreds of acres from private owners to build a memorial.

[Scarpetta]

If anyone ever doubts what we are doing in the Middle East, you need to read these transcripts. I don't know how human beings can be so cold-blooded. What the terrorists did that day,to all passengers, was beyond inhuman - they have a mindset that is just incomprehensible.

I know it is so easy to get swallowed up by our everyday lives, but I do believe at times that our country has forgotten already the horrors of that day. Me thinks our president needs to do a day trip, too. Lest he forget.

Just exactly should our role be in the Middle East waltersv?

The US has its own fair share of domestic terrorists and have trouble controlling them!

Are we seeking empire and domination in your estimation?

Just curious. Just wondered if you are versed on the diverse cultures of the Middle East, and exactly WHAT would be the US's role there.

[Coolwater]

Your post sounds like an appeal to strong emotion, waltersv. We've used that in the past to stir people up for a fight, without really thinking about what the goal was. Remember the Maine! Right. The press wanted a war so they could sell newspapers, and they made up all sorts of nonsense until we had one. They claimed that Cuban rebels blew up an American ship and off we went, unprepared, to have a war with Spain. We jumped into a colonial dispute that was none of our business. That damn war cost us lives and funds. And the punchline is that the darn ship blew up by accident.

The "weapons of mass destruction" were used by the Bush Administration the same way. The Shrub said that he planned to go to war in Iraq even before he was elected, and these imaginary weapons were the excuse he needed. 911 was a good excuse, too, but the truth is, neither of those are why we are there. We were suckered into it.

If we are going to war, let it be with deliberation and cool heads

[waltersv]

Strong emotion? You better believe it. You can't walk away from that site without some rather strong emotions. Listen to the story of the last half hour those passengers had on this earth - sheer hell doesn't begin to describe it.
I have no idea what our position in the Middle East will turn out to be, or should be. I lived through the Vietnam War period and that never made sense to me, either. I would hate to see this go on and on like that did. But somehow this feels different - we were attacked, and very, very, innocent lives were lost - and for what? It was just incredible to me, like I said before, the mindset they have; it's hard to imagine anyone so calculating and cold-blooded. I know we have our fair share here, but other than the Oklahoma bombing, nothing quite compares to the 9/11 attacks, in my life-time, anyway. That's the main point I was trying to make - just how tragic the scenario really was.
As for the memorial, I know there are questions as to the land situation. Perhaps they could scale it down a bit, but they have to take into consideration the need for parking, and RR facilities, and probably a small museum - it is a National Park site. But maybe some of the landowners will come to realize that this is bigger than they want to admit. This is now considered sacred ground; it really is a mass burial sight, and people from everywhere are coming to visit. 13 busloads of students came from Washington, DC, one day; 9 another day - this is a real-time history lesson for them - so many of them will remember that day, always. And the momentos people leave behind are very touching; just tokens of the loss they feel, and the helplessness. Again, the emotions...
No, I'm not trying to set off WWlll through our little forum here. I just thought I'd share with you a very moving experience, and encourage you to visit if you ever get the chance, and never forget.

[Scarpetta]

The sites are meant to memorialize bravery. No we should never forget, and remaining vigilant is essential for security.

Being fearful of 'They' without identifying the 'they' is important. Remember we placed Japanese US citizens in detention camps during WWII. To repeat such a travesty would be a serious mistake. Thus we must be vigilant and CAREFUL how we label 'they'.

Remember that the perpetrators of 9/11 were CRIMINALS that claimed no National origin, or FOUGHT for any NATION. 'They' in this case were CRIMINALS and EXTREMISTS.

As Coolwater carefully laid out, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, yet we invaded that nation anyway.

We must be careful with 'they' and seek to identify the criminals .

We must be vigilant as citizens also to be able to identify the worthy-sounding goals – freedom, democracy, security – and then have power use whatever tactics are deemed necessary – torture, murder, unprovoked invasions to convince us of their moral absolutes.

We must remember who we are, not conduct ourselves in the same manner as...'they'.

[waltersv]

I understand what you are saying, for the most part. By using "they', I'm referring to those who instigated and carried out 9/11. But wherever these perpetrators (or whatever you choose to call them), are from, it isn't exactly downtown USA. There are underground cells throughout the Middle East, are there not?
There is something very twisted with the thinking of these extremists, as you call them. What sense does it make to shoot down an airliner full of people (Lockerbie)? That is what I can't comprehend. What are they getting in return, other than the notoriety? What do they want? Or do they just hate us that much? Why? I'm a nice person, as I'm sure you are, too. So were the passengers that died - they did not deserve that.
Of course, we don't want a repete of the Japanese scenario, but you are right in that we do have to be vigilant. Do you think any of the passengers that day ever thought their fellow passengers would turn out to be "extremists", who would bring them all to their deaths? As annoying as all the security is these days, at the airports, etc, I suppose something good may have come of it. It's made this country safer, just a little late.
Although, I'm not sure all of the terrorists that day were criminals, or just brainwashed believers. Remember the Japanese kamikaze pilots of WW ll? They were young and poorly trained, but undeniably thought it their "duty" to dive into ships on suicide missions. After reading the transcripts at Somerset, the dialogue of the perpetrators was eerily similar. They believed in "Allah" and made constant reference to that - almost chanting it. I believe in my God, too, but if I was told to go crash an airliner into the biggest building I could find, I think I'd have a problem with that. Wouldn't you?

Speak of the devil, I just saw on the news that Bin Ladin has released a new tape, and he's really upset with President O'Bama. Imagine that.

[Scarpetta]

waltersv said:
I'm not sure all of the terrorists that day were criminals, or just brainwashed believers. Remember the Japanese kamikaze pilots of WW ll? They were young and poorly trained, but undeniably thought it their "duty" to dive into ships on suicide missions. After reading the transcripts at Somerset, the dialogue of the perpetrators was eerily similar. They believed in "Allah" and made constant reference to that - almost chanting it. I believe in my God, too, but if I was told to go crash an airliner into the biggest building I could find, I think I'd have a problem with that. Wouldn't you?

Your first sentence in that paragraph doubting the highjackers on 9/11 as criminals but followers of 'Allah'. There is no seperation between the criminal act and what they did in 'his' [Allah's] name. They were criminals who mistakenly took license to kill and placed it under the umbrella of religion. What that made them was 'extremist criminals'!

The Nation of Japan declared War on the US with it's attack on Pearl Harbor. We in turn declared War on the Nation of Japan. The kamakazi fighters you reference swore allegiance to their Emperor and did so knowing it was death to them. They did it in the name of loyalty to Nation. The 9/11 highjackers did their criminal act, so they said, for their God. Similar declaration by the US would be to declare war on God, if your exampe is to be the same.

It seems to me that you are neglecting to see the very large elephant in the room, that GOD didn't declare War on us, nor did he send highjackers on 9/11. Criminals with extreme beliefs did.

That is why I am careful with 'they'.

You may not crash an airliner for your God, but homegrown terrorists, extremists like Timothy McVeigh who bombed the Federal Building in Oklahoma, believed in what he did too.

There is currently an asassination in Kansas of a Medical Dr., that no matter how you feel about the Dr., I don't see how rational beings could side with the murderer, just because his 'beliefs' were motivating him. Criminal is criminal and they all are criminals. I will give the later example an 'alleged' because he has not been tried in a court of law yet and in the US the rule of law is important. It is paramount to who we are as a people.