Peace in the Middle East

[Sam]

:eek: I am surprised that none of us has commented on the elections in Iran and it's aftermath.
:rolleyes: So Here's my take on it.
From what I have seen...There IS Hope for Peace in this middle eastern country. I was deeply saddened by the tragic loss of life of those who are fighting for a more Peaceful Iran!!
BUT I am also filled with hope that this country in the Not-Too-Distant future will be able to coexist and even flourish with the rest of the world in Peaceful unity!
I am very proud to see that the youth of that country is standing up with and for it's more peace loving citizens. And that they are willing to make a change for the benefit of their country and also the world. It really gives hope at a time when so many need it!
And NO OIL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!
Those who want to hang on to Tyranny will be S.O.L.!!
Because Education and the internet are TWO VERY POWERFUL TOOLS!!
It is by learning that we grow and by growing that we learn!!;)

[Coolwater]

I hope you're right, Sammy, and I admire the folks demanding their rights and their clever use of technology. I guess I've gotten a bit cynical about their prospects. The Soviet Union fell, but in Russia, the thugs are back in power. Tienenmin Square (sp?) was inspiring, but nothing changed. Mexico is losing its battle with drug lords and graft. The warlords and the mullahs are poised to fight over Iraq when we're gone, and Thailand is having huge struggles with it's efforts to replace a benevolent monarchy with a democracy. It seems like where tyranny is concerned we take two steps forward and one back.

I guess I should try to be more grateful for the one step forward that results. Ireland is calm, the former Soviet satellite states are getting their acts together, Turkey has managed to fend off the religious right's efforts to take over a determinedly secular state... there, see? I feel better already. :D

[Sam]

:) We can't lose our faith in others and their struggles for Peace Cool. If we do then those fighting for Peace might lose their faith too and tyranny will win out.
Faith and Hope are powerful tools too. They can get you through times when nothing else will.;)
:rolleyes: Sorry if that came off a little too preachy.:o

[Coolwater]

Nope,.you're right. Thanks fr the pep talk. :)

[brilliant!MacLeod]

There was a very brave and wonderful protestant preacher in Germany during the so called Third Reich,Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
He was a very faithful man and also a man of peace.But he joined the group around Graf Stauffenberg,planing to kill Hitler(remember HL eps."The Valkyrie") because he believed to be able to stopp tyranny "you have to grip into the spokes of the wheel"(quotation).
Altough he was caught,sent to prison and finally murdered on April 9. in 1945 he never lost his hope or his Faith.
He never fired a gun personally but his powerful weapons were his words and actions,so he can still be an example for everbody not to keep quiet but to fight,speak their minds and not to submit to tyranny.

I do hope the people in Iran will continue their fight and finally win!

[ootleg]

Humanity, both male and female is capable of viciousness and brutality.
As the state of affairs continue to go downhill.

I don’t think that there would be peace in the Middle East. Long as the mad mullahs of Iran are in power. And other states from other parts of the world, stoking the flame of discontentment.

Many years ago, when my father first saw Vladimir Putin on a TV screen, he said, “His eyes are fierce,” My father already knew what kind of person he is by just staring at the screen. That was before Putin showed his true colours and the rest is history.

And the Russian people brought into Putin’s Russia. After others’ wealth was seized and divided.

Speaking of which.

It’s not about oil, or the wealth. It’s all about the power. Power, dominance and authority over others. Via intimidation, subversion, manoeuvring, manipulation and military might.

On what is on a dictator’s mind, is total subjugation, dominance and control.
With the so called drug war going on in Mexico. Mexico is all ready on its way as the new Colombia.

In the old days people had to fight for everything. For food, for territory, for safety and for survival.

[Scarpetta]

Wonder how Ootleg's quote would apply to the US of A?

It’s not about oil, or the wealth. It’s all about the power. Power, dominance and authority over others. Via intimidation, subversion, manoeuvring, manipulation and military might.

With one minor correction. Oil, wealth IS POWER.

[ootleg]

Actually I wasn't talking about oil and wealth. It is true wealth is power.
Basically wealth is meaningless, one would gain wealth in one moment and loses everything in another.

It's not what I was referring to.
In basic term. some don't care about wealth or oil.

Some individuals have killed others for a lot less and for various reasons. Especially those in other corners of the world.

You'd be surprised of the lunacy and the animosity that goes on in the world.

As for other states, I was referring to other nations. world nations to be exact.

[Scarpetta]

and I was referring to the inhumanity to man, the bigoted thinking that is not inclusively 'other' nations. The US has its fair share of corruption, racisim, all the 'isms' that are attributed to ALL humanity, regardless of National border.

[Sam]

You are right OOTLEG when you say that Humanity is capable of viciousness and brutality.
IMHO it is embedded in each of us for our survival.
BUT it is our choice of whether or not to use it and How we use it!!
For example: A child raised in a violent atmosephere where all he sees is someone killing someone for money or food or whatever..
Even when removed from that place he will continue to do this too. Because it is all he has been taught and all he has ever known.
BUT if you can take him from this situation and show him that there are other choices such as working for his money or growing his own food...Then you can alter his perception and he can learn to live in Peace with others.
You can also take the kindest, gentlest person on the planet and cage them ,abuse them or torture them and if they have the physical strenght or mental presence of mind left to do so...Will kill their tormentor.

I don't need to be a world traveler to know that there are people in this world (YES EVERY COUNTRY HAS THEM!) who will get some sort of sick thrill from merely the suffering of others!
But when there are enough people in the regions and in the world who want Peace bad enough to stand up and wag their finger at the evil doers and PUBLICALLY say to them: I see you! I know what you are! And what you are doing will NO LONGER be tolerated!.
These people will lose most of their power and find a way to get along with others.
Those who don't well...that where the choice of what we use and how we use it comes in.
IMO many in the Middle East such as Iran think we want to take their country from them and force them to give up their religion. And those who control the country use this fear to their advantage and exploit it to stay in power.
But reguardless of whether it is the Middle East or any other country....
The change for Peace comes from all of us. We have to reach out and get to know one another better. To show others that we are different but yet we are so very much alike! And that the way of Peace is better for all in the long run.
Will there ever be world peace? Probaly not! And if it does occur it probably won't be in our lifetime. But at least we have taken one more step forward for future generations.;)

[Scarpetta]

Peaceful thoughts Sam.

As you said:
I don't need to be a world traveler to know that there are people in this world (YES EVERY COUNTRY HAS THEM!) who will get some sort of sick thrill from merely the suffering of others!

But when there are enough people in the regions and in the world who want Peace bad enough to stand up and wag their finger at the evil doers and PUBLICALLY say to them: I see you! I know what you are! And what you are doing will NO LONGER be tolerated!.

As I said, and I repeat. Some of those people reside in the US of A!

We don't have to travel but we do have to learn. Cultures vary. They may not be like our own. People see things differently, but MOST are good people.

Seeing the good is one thing, attempting to add our own cultures values is another.

[brilliant!MacLeod]

There is an adage here:"When you change-the people around you finally will change,too".
So let´s start with changing our selves ,some day the other swill follow!!

[Coolwater]

In spite of all the difficulties, I find the European Union, and the United States, and Canada, which is also a confederacy, to be grounds for hope. Not perfect, but better than things were once upon a time.

[brilliant!MacLeod]

In spite of all the difficulties, I find the European Union, and the United States, and Canada, which is also a confederacy, to be grounds for hope. Not perfect, but better than things were once upon a time.

That´s so true.
We Germans could finally work it out after 12 years of the most awful tyranny and with the help of the world we have a working democracy for over 60 years now!!!!
So you see,it´s possible!!!

[Coolwater]

Yes, I was wondering how things have been going in Germany, Brilliant. How is the economy?

http://www.highlander-community.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=42834
Curiously, there is a new thread on the highlander-community bb on a related topic. Apparently the Pope feels that there should be a world government. And no, he didn't say that it should be a Catholic world government, although I'm sure he'd prefer it. So we're discussion the idea.

[brilliant!MacLeod]

It´s also bad here,a lot of people are unemployed but still the purchasing power is quite good.A lot of long -established businesses are ruined or working only part time,People I know think twice before spending money on "pleasure things".restaurants are no longer frequented so often,cultural events left out for financial reasons.I see it even in my business as a lawyer that people without insurance no longer seek professional advice .And I see the many inlovencies I have to deal with,trying to get my clients´money from their debtors without success and seeing them to go insolvent because of that fact.(sorry,my English is a little clumsy today but I hope you get the meaning).
Here it was never common as it is in the US to have more than one job to earn your living but it´s getting more and more normal.We still are not used to that,also that there are so many people said to be really poor,esp.children.We used to be one of the rich countries and some people still don´t realize that these times are over!
So we are not better off than the rest of the world anymore-we just have to acknowledge this fact.

And - I don´t want a world government,esp.not a catholic one!Even if the Pope is German-he is not the man I personally (being a protestant by heart)would like to rule the world(no offense intended,speaking only for my self and not about religion,believes or something)

[Coolwater]

You're having the same problems we are here in the States. As for the world government, it seems like a reasonably good idea provided that it is representative and has good sub-states - and isn't a theocracy of any kind! ;) I don't think that will happen soon, though.

[Scarpetta]

You're having the same problems we are here in the States. As for the world government, it seems like a reasonably good idea provided that it is representative and has good sub-states - and isn't a theocracy of any kind! ;) I don't think that will happen soon, though.

World Government? Which Century of the next millenium?

That might happen with space travel and colonization. Think we might miss it?

[Coolwater]

Well, Petta, who would have expected the European Union?

[Scarpetta]

'World government' brings to mind the Youth for a Mission Religious group that their stated purpose is Christian world-control. They work under the 7 Mountains of Culture guidelines outlining seven areas of influence for Christian fundamentalists to reclaim Government, Education, Media, Arts and Entertainment, Religion, Family and Business.

The Mountain of Business, "where people build for the glory of God or the glory of man."

The last is the key mountain, proclaims their video: "those who lead this mountain influence what controls our culture."


I'm sure you have recently heard Republican Ensign refer to 'the Family', the C Street organization, the rather secret Religious group. They function in DC out of a house owned by Youth for a Mission.

[Sam]

That is an interesting concept Coolwater.
But religion is such a strong force in so many societies. Those with strong religious beliefs probably would fear losing their religious rights and wouldn't agree to such.
I wouldn't want whatever spiritual beliefs I hold to be decided and dictated by someone elses.
It is feasible since we do honor and respect a large number of religions here and yet we still have one main leader and one main set of laws here in the US....
But even so our system is a work in progress.
I just don't see many countries coming on board for it. There is too much distrust among nations for that to happen in the forseeable future.
We already have the UN and many countries blatantly disreguard it!
If it were to work it would have to be set up in a similar fashion to the UN but with stricter guidelines.

I am bothered by Iran's Leader accusing the US and other free nations as interfering with their election process by inciting people to riot.
THAT is among the most rediculous things he could have possibly said!!
I guess his narcisistic personality won't allow him to accept the fact that people have minds of their own and Not Everyone thinks he is as Great as He Does!!:rolleyes:

[Coolwater]

'World government' brings to mind the Youth for a Mission Religious group that their stated purpose is Christian world-control. They work under the 7 Mountains of Culture guidelines outlining seven areas of influence for Christian fundamentalists to reclaim Government, Education, Media, Arts and Entertainment, Religion, Family and Business.

The Mountain of Business, "where people build for the glory of God or the glory of man."

The last is the key mountain, proclaims their video: "those who lead this mountain influence what controls our culture."


I'm sure you have recently heard Republican Ensign refer to 'the Family', the C Street organization, the rather secret Religious group. They function in DC out of a house owned by Youth for a Mission.

:eek::eek::eek: Scarpetta, I've never heard of this group!

Well, Sam, group government has worked pretty well here since the "recent Unpleasantness between the States" was resolved.;) It works in Canada and Australia, The Eu is gettin going. I don't think it will happen overnight, but I have hope for a peaceful world of representative governments some day.

[Scarpetta]

:eek::eek::eek: Scarpetta, I've never heard of this group!

Well, Sam, group government has worked pretty well here since the "recent Unpleasantness between the States" was resolved.;) It works in Canada and Australia, The Eu is gettin going. I don't think it will happen overnight, but I have hope for a peaceful world of representative governments some day.

Representative Governments, as in United Nations? It is an absolutely wonderful idea, that works minimally, unfortunately.

The Pope called for 'moral order'. That includes first and foremost "the fundamental right to life" from conception to natural death, the recognition of the family based on marriage between one man and one woman as the basis of society and freedom for faith and cooperation among all peoples based on principles of natural law.

Well, that model probably will be hard to sell world-wide!

As to the Group.

Youth With a Mission is one of the most extensive Christian fundamentalist para-church organizations and it's founder leader Loren Cunningham came up with the '7 Mountains of Culture'. (Youth With a Mission is a global Christian evangelical organization founded in 1960 which, declares YWAM, is "currently operating in more than 1000 locations in over 149 countries, with a staff of nearly 16,000." )



The C Street House is run by a secretive Washington ministry known as The Family, or The Fellowship. A Christian group running a 'Group Home'.

'In The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power', published last year, the journalist Jeff Sharlet reported that both Ensign and Coburn -- as well as several other members of Congress of both parties, but predominantly Republicans -- are members of a secretive and publicity-shy religious organization founded in 1935 that aims, broadly speaking, to forge ties with decision-makers around the world in order to put Christian teachings at the center of public policy.

No one knows a whole lot about them. They are most secret! Many politicians there however.

We will probably be hearing more about them as more information on the Ensign affair surfaces!

[Coolwater]

That's pretty creepy stuff, Petta. Of course the pope would want a Roman Catholic world order, just as the mullahs want a sharia-based world order (only they think it is an Islamic world order). I would never support anything but a secular government for any reason.

[Catherine]

I don't really know that we could get to agreement on a secular government, though, unfortunately. Look how much trouble the American constitution was to get to agreement on, and we had a lot of consensus as to what we wanted back then.

[Scarpetta]

US Constitution? Oh the Secular part was arrived at quite easily. They had England at the time for reference!