A further 'Ask Adrian' update [Archive] - Adrian Paul Message Board

Coolwater

10-13-2008, 06:45 PM

Are you referring to the electoral college, brilliant? Here is an explanation, if you have the patience for it. :)

In spite of the ideal of "one man, one vote" we actually have two sets of voters, the popular vote (one vote per citizen) and the electoral college vote. The electoral vote is composed of representatives who are supposed to take the popular vote of their district as a guide, and add whatever information they may have that the regular voters don't, and then it is the electoral college voters who actually cast their votes for the president.

The electoral college was originally formed at a time when most citizens weren't educated, and the founding fathers were worried that uneducated people wouldn't be able to guide the country. Only educated people were to be electoral college representatives, called "delegates." The other reason for the college was the usual problem we have here in the US of population density: some states have many citizens, while some have fewer. The distribution of electoral votes is intended partly to compensate for that, so that one or two population-rich states cannot by themselves determine an election.

That is why a map of the US can be misleading when it is marked out in red and blue for the different parties. That is also why it is possible for one man to win the popular vote, and still lose the election. :mad:

Editorial: Personally, I dislike this system very much, because the delegates do not have to vote the way their citizens do. Also, the way the political parties assign voters to the electoral college is not well established in law, and the ability to vote is often handed out as a reward for political loyalty. The result is that the electoral college is full of Strewwel Peters who get to decide the election!!! :mad: :mad: I think the whole system needs an overhaul.

Ugh, we could use our new citizen AP here right this minute, because he has studied this stuff recently, and I just wrote this off the top of my head. I may have made some mistakes, so if any of you Statesiders want to make corrections, feel free!

brilliant!MacLeod

10-14-2008, 11:38 AM

Thanks,Coolwater.
I think I can understand it better now(at least the reasons for establishing the system).
In Germany it´s one man/woman,one vote.That gives at least a fairer result.

Coolwater

10-14-2008, 03:25 PM

brilliant, guess what! I went to Wikipedia to check on my explanation and found this: according to Wiki, the idea for an Electoral College actually originated in Germany when Germanic law stated that kings had to have the stated support of their male nobles - who voted! :D

Littledevil

10-16-2008, 07:32 PM

Ok, now I feel compelled to respond. I love the fact that Adrian has become a US Citizen. I am sorry if any of my opinions offend anyone.

First off thank god for freedom of speech! I was originally for Hillary Clinton for President and said that if she didn't get the nomination I would vote republican because I didn't get a good feeling from Obama, which had nothing to do with his race or religion. As for McCain, he has changed his views and what he has said he will do as president through out the entire primary race. From the War in Iraq, to how he will deal with it, supporting President Bush and his policies, to he says he is a reformer to he and Sara Palin are Mavericks. He hasn't stuck with anything through out his campaign. Second, Palin doesn't have a lot of experience and that fact that she says she has foreign policy experience just because of Russion is ludacrist. She plays off to the American people that she is just like us and is out for us, but he body language doesn't tell me that. Don't get me wrong I would love a female to be president, but I want the right women for the job and it is certainly not Sara Palin, especially if McCain was no longer able. Their views on Health care, for instance, that $5,000 tax credit doesn't realy go to us the people, it will go to the insurance companies. Plus $5,000 wouldn't cover my health care coverage for my family. They both would like to see Roe V Way overturned. This is a huge issue for me. I am pro-choice, but I am against partial birth abortion once far into the 2nd Trimester. I don't think anyone has the right to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body. My body my right. A fetus is simply that a fetus until much later in a pregnancy. If I was raped and became pregnant as a result at any age, my choice would be to abort. If my life would be lost due to carrying a child to term that's my right for abortion as well. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control either.

Obama may not have a lot of foreign policy experience, however, I don't think any of the politicians in office now are doing such a great job on that home front either. Politics as usual are not doing any good. Biden on the other hand does have foreign policy experience and I would feel comfortable with him leading should something happen to Obama. As for health care issues, his plan may be a better solution. One thing Obama through out his entire campaign has been for Change. He has been pretty consitent with everything he has said and hasn't deviated that much, but McCain has.

As far as the war on Iraq, yes Hussein was a dictator, but the war on terror started in Afganistan and Pakistan, not Iraq. The middle East has been fighting for thousands of years and The big US isn't going to be able to solve or even change their ways, especially if they don't want to change. Terrorist who would attack us for being us should be our target, however we have muddled through their country for our own benefit for years and is part of their hatred toward us. They also believe that the only way for the Twelfth Amon can only come back when the world is in complete choas. Doesn't that sound like where we are headed? For them to believe they are getting what they want.

As for our economy, letting irresponsible CEO's of big companies go unregulated is part of the reason why we are where we are. From the credit card companies to Lenders, to wall street, etc.

As for Oil and gas prices. Both parties are promising relief. Realistically, if we started drilling tomorrow for oil would wouldn't see a drop in prices immediatly. We need more refinneries, which haven't been built since the 70's. It would be at least 10 years before we will see the benefit from drilling. We still need to drill, but in addition we need to concentrate on wind, solar, & natural gas.

The world is like a giant playground of toys for a child to play with. I am sure many of us parents have watched our children or others play with their toys and have watched how destructive and careless they are with them until they break. Which is exactly what we humans are doing to the world. We are destroying it ourselves! I believe we will be our own destruction than God, Allah, Budda, or any other deity people have worshipped.

Sorry if my rant is lenghty or if I went off topic a little, but I have a lot to say and don't have that much room to write. After watching the last debate, I think I have made my mind up about who I will vote for. Obama I think may be the better choice for our country and direction. I have often said over the last 8 years, that this country has been heading to h*ll in a giftwrapped hand basket to Satan for Christmas because of how this country has been run. Personally I don't want to see this.

Coolwater

10-17-2008, 02:33 AM

LD, I do believe that that is the riskiest, most controversial post I've seen on this site since it went from apfc to apnet. Good for you. Good for Adrian, too, for asking people to really think about politics and to get out there and vote.

I'd argue with you just to encourage the discussion, but I can't because mostly I agree with you! :D

brilliant!MacLeod

10-17-2008, 04:00 PM

Little Devil,
I know I´m not an American so I don´t really have a right to take part in this discussion. But... I just wanted you to know how wright you are!!!
You spoke directly from my heart and I couldn´t have said it better - even if my english was a little better than it actually is:D
I absolutely appreciate any freedom of speech(as long as nobody is attacked
personally ,of course):D
So thanks again for your brave words!!!

Coolwater

10-17-2008, 04:40 PM

brilliant, your non-American comments are welcome to many of us because we need to know how others see us. Many Statesiders are concerned about our international image because the Bush administration has done a dreadful job with foreign policy. I believe it will take years to repair our relationships with other nations. :(

The good news is that we can have a rebellion and a new government without killing anyone. It's the American way!

JustBecause

10-17-2008, 05:38 PM

LD - Lengthy? What rant? :)

What I see is a very well thought out position based on facts and your observations. When presented the way that you have, one has to go back to the facts to argue against any of the points.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and you've made it very easy for me. So has Coolwater and brilliant!MacLeod. All I have to say is 'Ditto!' :)

Littledevil

10-19-2008, 12:44 AM

Thank you ladies. I am an opinionated and passionate person and express myself as much as I can. Though there are some people who don't appreciate those types of qualities. Mainly my husband who hates that I have an answer for just about everything.

I tend to rant when speaking of politics, religions, and rights. I am all for debating on these topics. I love to talk about many different topics and listen to what views and beliefs others have. I like to play devil's advocate and look at subjects from different points of view. I like to keep my mind wide open about everything and look at all sides. I think it is only then that you truely get a full picture of what is really going on. I have always said there are three sides to every story. Yours, Mine, & the Truth.

Again sorry about the lengthy rant!:) I just can't help myself!

Sam

10-19-2008, 04:14 AM

:p Hi everyone. Just had a minute to drop in.
I think Adrian will be an asset to our democracy. Welcome to life as an official US citizen Adrian.
LD GMTA!! I'm with you on all counts except that I believe life begins at conception. I don't believe in abortion but I don't think anyone should have the right to deny someone else that choice. I think it was way past due that McCain admitted that Iraq had been invaded to remove a tyrant but also because of oil!! In doing so he admitted that the President and those near him had blatantly and repeatedly lied to the citizens of this country. I see McCain as another Bush and I sure as heck don't want another one of those! (I didn't choose him in the first place.
Just Because and Coolwater..I agree with what the both of you had to say as well. (I especially agree that the Electoral College has out lived it's usefullness and now only hampers the process.)

Brilliant! Macleod... I too Welcome your opinion and that of anyone else living outside the US. Just as no man stands alone...No country stands alone!! We share the world we live in. It is not ours alone and we not only have to say that this is what we want but we have to show it in our actions. Your opinion counts a great deal. AND YOU DO HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK ON THIS MATTER!! Even if you can't vote on it here. ;)

OK climbing off my soapbox and back to work.:rolleyes:

Coolwater

10-19-2008, 07:29 PM

just remember: don't keep your mind so open that your brains fall out. ;)

Sekhmet

10-19-2008, 08:08 PM

I am glad Adrian is a citizen of the USA now. As for politics, I am so tired of the Bush administration. Being from Texas, I was tired of Bush as governor.;)
I am in agreement with all who have posted. The electoral process is done with. I think it is as corrupted as those in power. We the People need to take back the vote and make it count. I swear I am seriously considering not even voting. I have thoughts of shredding my voter's card:D

Littledevil

10-20-2008, 12:46 AM

:DI'll try not too Coolwater. :D

brilliant!MacLeod

10-20-2008, 11:57 AM

According to my hubby mine already fell out!:D

I wanted to say thank you to all of you,giving me the freedom of speech and making me feel so welcome and at home here:)

dd in NH

10-20-2008, 01:52 PM

In 2007, I attended my co-worker's natualization ceremony. Amy came to the US from the Phillipines via Saudi Arabia, with her American husband and two daughters (who were born in Saudi but were American citizens because their father is). For 5 years she had studied, read and tried to learn about "US" (US as people and the Country), in the "months" prior to her taking the test, all in the office helped her with questions - alot of the answers we did not know and we learned as well.

Amy became a citizen on July 4th, at Strawberry Banks, in Portsmouth NH, on July 4th. The significance of this was amazing to me. Strawberry Banks was among the first settlements in NH and is set up as a (town) museum. Buildings, furnishings, etc are the same as when originally settled. The staff and volunteers all wear period clothing. Some of the men carry muskets, the women wear layers upon layers of clothing topped with mop hats and aprons.

The countries represented were from A (Austrailia) to Z (Zimbobwi (sp)) and 186 people became Americans that day. As I sat in the audience with my co-workers, listening to the Countries being named and watching them approach the podium where the Governor & his wife greeted each one and shook hands, I was overwhelmed. Most all around me were from "foreign countries", some you could tell by the attire where they were from but for the most, they looked no different than my neighbor or co-workers. I felt so proud of my country at that moment - the new Citizens had left their HOMES and Families to come to my home to live. Yes, many brought their families with them, but some could not. Some were new to the US, some like Amy had been here for 5-6 years but some had been here 15 - 20 years before taking the Oath.

If Adrian's ceremony was half of what Amy's was - what a party!!
It took courage and hard work to become a United States Citizen, what most of us take for granted and sometimes don't appreciate.

Amy has two birthdays now - the day of her birth and the day she became a citizen. We celebrate both with her.

Sorry this is so long and windy but finding that Adrian was granted citizenship means a lot to me and having experienced it with my friend, am doubly proud of Adrian.
thanks for letting me ramble. dd in NH:o

Coolwater

10-20-2008, 05:05 PM

Thanks, dd. It sounds like attending a really big wedding!

appeace

10-20-2008, 11:28 PM

Yup---fell out---got stepped on by an elephant and is now just a itty-bitty grease spot on the sidewalk==Ackkkkk:eek:
Just one more reason I so admire Adrian. His ability to garner such respect from his fans that we all mightily attempt to adhere to his ideals of tolerance and courtesy even though we do not agree on all things!

Wouldnt it be grand if governments worked that way????:rolleyes:

Coolwater

10-21-2008, 04:27 AM

What got stepped on by an elephant? :eek: A political ideal?? That's for sure!

Yep, tolerance is a good thing. I have to admit, though it's nice to be able to admit to being a (shhh!) liberal without having to duck all the time. ;)

You're being very quiet Mac. I'll duck if you want to throw something.

Littledevil

10-22-2008, 12:52 AM

If government worked this way, there wouldn't be anything for them to fight about. Adrian's ideals are very respectable and makes you want to be a better person.

Starshadow

10-22-2008, 01:39 AM

Not only is Adrian drop dead gorgeous, not only can he act, direct and produce, not only is he an animal lover and a kind person involved with a wonderful charity, but he's brilliant too.

I just adore Adrian.

And he keeps giving me more reasons to do so.

francesligori

10-22-2008, 05:44 AM

I could not help but read some of the replies given about Adrian being a citizen of the U.S.A. now.....I personally am very pleased for him as I had heard he had tried and tried to be a citizen but was having quite a hard time of it...Best wishes to him....
About the upcoming presidential election. Well I am sure all are upright people who want to be elected but whomever it is will have a lot to overcome and to try to get worked out. It will be a thankless undertaking as nobody can get problems solved overnight and all the good intentions in the world don't mean much until it is a done deal. They will be expected to work it all out overnight and it will never happen. It is a sad state of affairs that our country is now facing and I pray God helps us remain the land of the free and the brave. It is time to put "in God we trust" back, as well as in the schools. It should have never been changed in the first place. I feel first and foremost that a person who believes that abortion should be allowed , has no respect for life and i don't want that person elected to be even dog catcher let alone president. People are godless anymore and we all need to get God back on our side......Maybe then our problems could and would be overcome.
Just my personal opinion. I have more but thats for another time. For all of you out there, how about saying a prayer for america. Thanks. bye for now. Fran.

hcla

10-22-2008, 05:58 PM

Starshadow....could not of said it better, and lil' devil...so true He does make one aspire to be a better person.

appeace

10-22-2008, 07:35 PM

No--no political connection. That is just a Texas way of explaining how flat one is squished:D
Im a conservative Christian, but Im not really pleased with either candidate. Tho I feel very sad for those who have an unwanted pregnancy, Im even more sad that they did not think of that before performing the act and are now going to rectify the unwanted pregnancy by murdering one of Gods children. God has a reason for each one of those precious blessings to be on this earth--even those created by force and even if we dont know that purpose. Neither am I please with either candidates "plans" for fixing the economy. Just seems that more and more of we middle class income folks will be pushed to the lower income folks.
However, the Lord tells us not to judge a man by his words but by his deeds and I am terrified by the criminals and fanatic people Obama has included in his life. I am terrified by the way, when he did cast a vote, the way he voted which is totally contrary to what he now claims he will and will not do. I am terrified that despite his calm, in front of the camera, demeanor and his ability to eloquently read a prepared speech, this candidate is a fanatic.
Whether he is a fanatic muslem, a fanatic Christian, or a fanatic black man, I do believe he is a fanatic and that type personality is not what this country needs. In my humble opinion, Obama will cause even more derisiveness between Americans and between Americans and foreign nations----
BUT that is my opinion only and yes, thank the Lord. we still have the right in this country to express and discuss our opinions and learn from one another:)

Coolwater

10-22-2008, 07:40 PM

What makes you think Obama is a fanatic? He seems very moderate to me.:confused:

Coolwater

10-22-2008, 10:32 PM

McCain himself said of Obama that he is not an Arab, and not someone of whom Americans need to be afraid. McCain describes him as a decent family man. These two bits of film were all over the news, including FOX, for a while, and are not "made up".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4&feature=related

McCain has been an honest, honorable man, and I think the lies about Obama being some sort of crazy, untrustworthy fanatic is coming from people in the Republican campaign who want to win at any cost.

appeace

10-22-2008, 10:55 PM

I respect your view, however I must respectfully disagree. Obama was born to a radical muslim mother, father and step-father and tho they may not have been terrorists, "you are what your raised". Further, he attended, for 20 years, a very radical minded church with a very controversial leader who preached radicalism. Lastly, he surrounds himself with people of shady reputation and character.
I do not argue that Obama is a good family man and loves his family, but his upbringing and consequent actions show me a person who believes radical ideals which do not, in my opinion, benefit America.

Coolwater

10-22-2008, 11:47 PM

appeace, who told you that??

Obama's father was a Kenyan, that's East African not Muslim. His mother was a white American, also non-Muslim. His folks divorced when he was tiny, and right after that, his dad was killed in a car accident. Later his mother married a non-Muslim Indonesian and they lived in Jakarta. When he was ten, Obama got shipped home to his Christian grandparents in Hawaii, where he attended a really good school called the Punahou School (a Hawaiian name), that wasn't religious at all.

This is all verifiable.

The worst you can say is that the guy's CHRISTIAN minister was too radical about African American politics, and Obama has never supported the minister's beliefs beyond the Christianity part. His mother, whom he obviously loved very much, was white; he's obviously not a racist.

The "shady characters" Obama "surrounded himself with" all turn out to be pretty tame, too. Look, telling lies and making the truth sound dirty about someone in order to win an election is really low. McCain himself has repudiated those stories.

appeace

10-23-2008, 03:39 AM

Im very sorry I have offended you so that you feel you must call me a lair.
However, the first reports called both Obamas parents "radicals" and this on CNN.
I do not believe that one can attend a church for 20 years and only believe the pastor in relation to Christianity. Most folks I know, if they did not agree with the pastors views, would change churches.
I consider a known terrorist and bomber of innocent people unsavory. I also consider one who affiliated himself with an organization who have, most probably, committed voter registration fraud, unwise.
I therefore, stand with my own humble opinion that Mr Obama is a radical--the type is of little importance to me. At the least, once again, in my own opinion, he has and, perhaps will again, make unwise choices and affiliations.
Yes, Mr McCain is striving his best to be a gentleman and point out these things without personal attack on Mr Obama. However, I cannot grasp the ideal that a voter should "sweep under the rug" all the past unwise choices and associations of any candidate simply to elect a candidate and "get revenge" for the perceived failed governing of a past president. All those unwise choices tell the proclivity of Mr Obama which worries me.
Once again, I apologize for offending and, if like on another Highlander board, only one side of the political ideal is allowed here unless subject to personal attack, then I will not post here again.
Please accept my apologies---

francesligori

10-23-2008, 04:39 AM

When I became involved with this fan club and began reading all the posts, I loved the fact that here i was, at my age, able to connect with so many other people that I felt were trustworthy. I still feel that way and that is becuse it is cared for by those who are Adrian's supporters. they give us the right to just carry on conversations, some about the man we all admire and respect so much, and some about other things we are interested in. This election thing is a touchy subject. You know what they say about conversing about politic's and religion.....it causes arguements and.is something we all like to let off steam about...Now this site is so nice and we can trust those who we can post with so do it with an open mind.
Nobody should take offence about anothers preference. That is why at the poles, we go into a cubby hole and fill in our papers without anybody else seeing it. We have to remember that freedom of speach is our given right in this country. We don't put anybody on the choping block for it. I once sent in a poem i had gotten thru an email. I thought it was cute and shared it with everybody. Boy did I set off a reaction. Some took offense, and really let me have it with both barrels. Finally tho others spoke up and said "Hey it was only a poem she shared." Got it quieted down. Now I didn't post to hurt anybody and did not realize one line of it was gonna cause hard feelings. I finally wrote and said hey, its a post I thought I would share. If you like it read it. If not delete it. Simple solution. We are free people and entitled to our viewpoints. Quit trying to put somebody in their place, so to speak. Don't be so quick to be judgemental. You have to remember none of us will always agree with the next guy so take it in stride and don't post by running the next guys points of view, down. We are entitled to speak from the heart and if a person quits then the other guy has won. Stick in there kiddo and the heck with the one who wants to argue about it. I love this site and its lovely that we can speak our feelings and not go to the firing squad for it. God Bless America, land of the free and the brave. Remember many people were killed for speaking up, and they died rather than let it go. They gave us the rights that freedom gives us.

PEACE. fran.

P.S. If bugs bunny would be up for election I would vote for him. ha.

Vernon Gaunt

10-23-2008, 06:54 AM

P.S. If bugs bunny would be up for election I would vote for him. ha.

124

"Yah know AP the difference between a vice pwesident and a wabbit? Yeah you guessed it!"

Sam

10-23-2008, 01:47 PM

Appeace please don't go any where.:( Your opinion is just as important as ours. So we don't agree on our political views. But like someone said earlier...that's what makes us great. We can agree to disagree. And the choices one makes are dependant on where they come from and the things they have experienced in this life. It doesn't make us right or wrong just different.

Hi Fran. Great to see you here. I respect your opinion also.

I think we all want what we feel is best for our country. When it comes to
choosing a president... I think we can all agree that given past presidencies....
that choosing the right one is a crap shoot. You hope you get the best person for the job. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don't.
But we should still keep trying.

VG that was just TOO FUNNY!! Thank you. I always welcome a good laugh.:D

hcla

10-23-2008, 02:16 PM

wow...too heated for me....I stay out of politics...most people say if we don't use our rights to vote then people like me who does not vote have no right to complain.....honestly,I won't lend my support to anything I can't trust...and I further believe they all know whos going to be president, and this is just entertainment....media hype for ratings. On a different note....mabe we could or should take this whole political I-conversation, and change it to something else....Religon and politics are subjects that cause division and conflict....something Highlander Fandom does not need, years of friendships can be ruined, hurt feelings, ect. PEACE!!!! :)

Coolwater

10-23-2008, 03:27 PM

Works for me. Greetings, Aarongray.

appeace, I don't think you are a liar. I think you have read or been told something that is factually wrong.

While I think there may be an error or two in what I told you about Obama's bio (like I'm not absolutely sure of when his biological father died), I'm certain enough about the gist of it, that I encourage you to check with any of the myth busting sites, which are not politically affiliated with a political party. They are unbiased, and go to a lot of trouble to check out the facts. You may not choose to believe me, but will you believe them?

All of this could be avoided if the political ads were required to stick to "truth in advertising" laws the way other advertisers are.

Please note: my post was not an attack on your opinions. I haven't talked about those, which would be things like your religious beliefs, and your feelings about abortion.

When you talk about a man's past, however, you're talking about verifiable facts. Those we can check up on, and as responsible voters, I think we should.

I'll go see what I can find on Obama's associations.

pepeperfume

10-23-2008, 03:44 PM

Like many Americans, I have grown tired and confused by the campaigning and advertising of 2008 presidential candidates.

Republicans blame Barack Obama and the Democrats for all the ills of government, and the same holds true for Democrats versus John McCain. Each campaign has taken specifics out of context and projected them in a light to match often groundless accusations. If one believes the commercials, Obama is a terrorist and a spendthrift, McCain is a geezer and a George W. Bush crony, Democrats tax and spend, Republicans deficit spend, Obama has too little experience and McCain has too much.

The potshots will continue, as they must, as each candidate vies for the most thankless job on Earth.

No one can deny that either candidate is driven. Why else would they expose themselves to the microscopic examination of everything they've ever done in their lives, the criticism of their values and ideas, and the constant threat to their safety that accompanies such public exposure.

For those of us who have certain key issues as a focus, the choice may be simpler. If the war on terror is the focal point, each candidate is distinctly different in how he would approach it. If Heathcare is your yardstick, then the labels of private Insurance and government controlled Insurance will guide your voting pen. And I see that for some of you abortion will decide who will be president—unfortunately, whether the next presidents agrees with Pro-life or Pro-choice views, will not run this country. You might say I think what a woman does with a child in her womb should be between her doctor and her own conscience. Government has no business in it.

Granted, a candidate's views may not always be translated into actual outcomes. Government still involves the battling parties in both the House and the Senate. A Democratic Congress and a Republican president often can — and do — produce gridlock.

It's amazing how the label of Republican or Democrat tints the glass through which party disciples view the world. Republicans watching debates seem to think that McCain and Palin are the winners in the recent spate of televised wars of words. Democrats think that Obama and Biden take the prize.

For those not wearing blinkers, it's probably a little harder to gauge.

What is disturbing is the number of people who say that they will not be voting because there is no real choice. The candidates, some of them say, offer nothing substantial or worthy of their support.

How sad.

In fact, both men could not be more opposite. Each offers a unique opportunity to drastically change the lives of everyone in the United States, and the world.

No choice?

Absurd!

If you serve duck some people will demand chicken.

All that is needed is to take heart and to pay attention to what's going on. It's not about Republican or Democrat, which is exactly the wrong reason to make any kind of choice. Our future president will have to work with both sides to get anything done. Choosing a president is about a person's past, present and future. It's about how he treats his wife, his children and his dog. It's about character, policies, morals, friends, religion, decision-making and the ability to do the job.

We can all make an informed choice about who we want to lead the world for the next four years. It's not all that hard, considering the information that's available just by turning on the television. We may make a mistake as many of us feel we did with George Bush. But at least it will be our mistake, and one that we will have to live with. We owe at least that much to our future.

Littledevil

10-23-2008, 03:53 PM

Sounds good to me too. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and that is what makes this country so great. I don't like to look at politics and religion as an arguement or upset someone in any way. I love to talk about many different things and find it very interesting the way other people view different topics. We as people are very interesting with the way we are and how we deal with different things. I hope no one leaves the forum because of particular views about one thing or another. I would never bash or think badly of anyone that had a different opinion from me. I think that this is a great forum and love the fact that Adrian loves his fans and shares with us his views. As well as learning about what he is up too in his career and life. He is intriquing as a celebrity and a man!

Coolwater

10-23-2008, 06:10 PM

Well said, pepe. If we look at the specific platforms of the two candidates, most of what we need to know to make our choices should be easily found. No need to insult the character of either candidate.

Carmel

10-23-2008, 08:27 PM

[quote=Aarongray;10020]ADMIN: Use of Forum for political and religious views.

Recently you will have read Adrian’s views on the upcoming election in the United States. As pointed out by Adrian, one of the many benefits of being a US citizen is the right to practice free speech...... It does need to be noted, however, that this website and this forum are Adrian’s and as such he has the right to use them to express his own sincerely held beliefs. In voicing them, he publicly accepts responsibility and accountability for those views. ...This Forum exists to enable fans of Adrian’s to discuss, sensibly, Adrian’s career and to receive information about his upcoming projects. It also exists to foster a community that (despite differences in other views) is joined by mutual support of Adrian and his career. To that extent, we ask that discussion be restricted to these things and topics that are not divisive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am posting on behalf of Victoria.

What is going to be made available to members of this Forum is a separate GENERAL CHAT thread/room that will be specifically for off topic posts that fall into the more emotional areas of politics, morals etc. It will be a 'room' where views and healthy discussion can be expressed in a civilized way. Some current posts that have appeared here have been edited. Once the new area is set up, they will be re-posted in full. The need for any editing is obviously reserved but would hopefully never have to be used.

By making a place for more contentious discussions, members will be able to make a choice as to whether they wish to enter into those discussions or not. The current arrangment where ALL off topic chit chat takes place in the one area does not provide members this choice. The webmaster will advise when this new area of the Forum is set up.

appeace

10-23-2008, 10:35 PM

Coolwater

10-24-2008, 01:29 AM

Carmel

10-24-2008, 04:08 AM

Well--I sure wish we had known that earlier. Once again, my apologies for any offense I may have caused. Although I understand Adrian's reasoning for his restrictions on his site, I guess I was too comfortable in the knowledge that Adrian stood for the ideal of tolerance and learning from one another in order to come together as a people.
My deepest, most sincere, humble apologies and, since now it appears everything I post must be approved by moderators before it will be posted, and since I have no wish whatsoever to be a threat or to be offensive to Adrian--It is with grave sorrow bid you all adieu:(

~~~~~~~~~~
Hi appeace
I think thatyou are misunderstanding. All that is happening is that there will be TWO General chat rooms on this Forum for off topic posts. One will be for the friendly chit chat as at present and one will be for the more "emotionally charged" topics, such as political views. This is being done so that these posts DON'T have to be moderated and more freedom can be exercised in relation to expressing views. Having this as a separate area enables a more clear choice for those who do and don't want to engage in such discussions. It is precisely BECAUSE Adrian cares about freedom of speech that this is happening. It may take a day or two, that is all, to set this up.

kind regards
Carmel :-)

Coolwater

10-24-2008, 02:29 PM

Excellent!

hcla

10-24-2008, 04:47 PM

As I said before.....subjects like Religon and Politics do nothing but cause division and conflict...pick up a history book and learn about the suffering mankind has endured because of these "controversial" topics. Appeace, I hope you don't leave the Forum....or anyone for that matter....lets all remember why we're here....Friendship, and great fun tracking Adrian's career. We're all intelligent, spirited adults....we learn so much from each other. :) LOVE...HEALTH...HAPPINESS TO ALL!!!!

pukkie

10-24-2008, 06:33 PM

Very wise words HCLA
I can not good enough express my self in Englisch.
Because of that i only read everything .
And do not react ,
I follow everthing in the newspaper and on tv about the politic in the US
It is very importent for us too
I hope appeace that you stay,and that we can together .further on this board.
And have much fun and friendship together.
I live on the other side of the world,and when we have contacts here,
is it we are all together .
Peace

Littledevil

10-24-2008, 07:07 PM

I must say please APPEACE don't go. Your opinions are valued and you are entitled to them.

As for the recent posts on this topic, I feel a little responsible that my little soap box rant started an arguement and I am sorry. I think it is a great idea for a section to the forum be setup for these types of topics.

I feel very strongly about Politics as well as many other topics. Someone already said in this topic that this election is a historical event. no matter who is elected president history will be made. Every presidential election has its fair share of negative exposure this has not changed ever. As for what each candidate claims he is going to do, he can't do it by himself.

This is a great place to talk to other people who love Adrian Paul and his career!

grace

10-25-2008, 02:11 AM

Oh, dear. Do stay, appeace. There have always been off-limits topics here, and it's never been a problem for you before, has it? You and I just need to speak more kindly, that's all. After all, ap peace is your screen name isn't it?:)

If you really want to leave, I don't think you'll find a Highlander-related website where you can state an exceedingly strong opinion and not have somebody come and argue with you about it. Still, Grace shares many of your beliefs, and if there is a site where you'll be comfortable, Grace will know of it. She is a member here, and at APUK, http://www.adrianpauluk.com/forum and you can send her a PM.

LOL....well thanks for the endorsement Cool! :D

Its true that the farther from the middle of the road that you are the more feedback that you will be given, but I've found that Highlander sites members in general mostly lean to the left so the more conservative that you are the more feedback you will be given.....however, as long as its all done in a civil manner its all good.

So, that being said, this is who I'm voting for and why ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhYampIl7A

grace

10-25-2008, 02:31 AM

As to who or what caused the current economic crisis, no one disputes that it is directly related to the "Community Reinvestment Act"....and it was the Republicans who kept warning us that this would spiral out of control when the banks were forced into making very high risk loans...tighter regulations were continually advised but guess who kept fighting against this wisdom?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivmL-lXNy64

JustBecause

10-25-2008, 02:48 AM

All of these links are enlightening on so-o-o many levels.

But...

Rather than rants and well edited video, I would prefer to see a clear, well thought out economic plan by McCain/Palin.

appeace

10-25-2008, 04:01 AM

hcla

10-25-2008, 03:59 PM

for laughs I just have to say Appeace that I too would be concerned if I posted something that caught Adrians attention....well I'd tuck tail and run too :eek::D....I was just imagining being scolded by Adrian....or offending him in some way...JUST PICTURE AN OSTRICH WITH IT'S HEAD IN THE DIRT...THATS ME!!!:D:o I'm soooo glad you're staying.

Littledevil

10-25-2008, 05:36 PM

Me too. If I was getting scolded by Adrian I would tuck tail and run too! Though I would probably faint if he walked into the same room as me. :eek::o

Barney

10-25-2008, 07:04 PM

Well, I voted today. I have to admit I'm glad its over. I don't like it when I'm not thrilled with either candidate. I don't have anything against either personally, I think they are both decent human beings and both have the good of the country at heart but personally I don't care for the economic, education or foreign policy of either. So, I read as much as I can and then follow my gut and vote for the one I feel will cause the least amount of damage in the next four years. I really miss not having a candidate that really wows me but then any one that I could really get behind, probably wouldn't want the job.

I have to admit I get really tired of all the negative ads. I think they shouldn't be able to talk about their opponents, I would rather just hear what it is they stand for and what they can do for the country.

I can understand why the topic caused so much hurt, politics are usually something most people feel strongly about but coming from a large family that runs the spectrum from one end to the other, we've learned to not take offense but to listen to each others point of view and choose to just disagree. A healthy discussion is great, people should be exposed to various viewpoints but never take dissent personally. We being unique individuals are never going to see eye to eye on everything.

Carmel

10-25-2008, 07:53 PM

Thank you my dear friends. Your kind words are treasured. As I have related to some, I have absolutly no hard feelings toward Coolwater or anyone else and only blame myself for the intervention of the moderators. My only concern was that I may have displeased Adrian making it necessary for him to call a halt to the discussion.:o:( I have agreed to stay but, I think in order not to cause any derisiveness between Adrians fans, I will refrain from posting on heated topics.:o
Once again, thank you all.:)

Hmmm - I don't know how else to express this appeace but, once again, you did not cause a problem, you displeased no-one and no halt was called to the discussion. All that was requested was that an additional area on this Forum be set up for the more contentious topics. That is in process.

Coolwater

10-25-2008, 09:32 PM

(innocently) So, Carmel, if we're bad, AP will notice us...?

:D

appeace

10-26-2008, 01:10 AM

I understand Carmel. I just wanted my friends to know that their support was appreciated.:)

Tessa

10-26-2008, 07:43 AM

I can understand the need for a sort of *holy ground* area for discussion of subjects that are sensitive in nature and where people tend to have very different opinions and beliefs, like politics and religion for example. On that thread, you will expect to find that and be prepared to post and take part in those discussions with more tolerance of other's views, yet have open discussion without losing it, so to speak. LOL Those who feel they can't do that can just choose to avoid the thread. I think it's a great idea.

Sam

10-26-2008, 12:54 PM

* Coco waves Hello to Tessa and Grace!*
:rolleyes: Of course you all know I have opinions on just about everything. This subject is no exception. But I think I have already voiced an opinion here so I'll just leave it at that. And in the future I'll do my peaceful debating in my quest to seek knowledge else where. I enjoy keeping up with Mr. Paul's work so I'll just stick with that. ;)

Sekhmet

10-27-2008, 11:17 AM

Well you know how the old joke goes,:D "How do you know when a politician is lying? When his lips are moving" :D

Littledevil

10-27-2008, 03:49 PM

Isn't that the Truth! I recently saw a show on the history channel. The title was Body Language. I found it very interesting and would recommend you rent it from Netflicks, if you have it. The show talks about how you can tell if someone is lying by their movements and what they do. Most of how we communicate with each other is through body language. The show touched on the current campaign as well.

Example: Russion President Putin held a summit with world leaders. President Bush also attended. They said that standing on the left is a sign of power or the one in charge. Also when you shake hands has the same meaning when you are on the left because the other person has their Palm facing outward rather than in. Putin strategically placed himself on the left, so all others would have to greet him on the right. However when Bush entered the seen, he entered on the right like everyone else, but when they shook hands and paused for their picture taken, Bush crowded Putin. Blocking the handshake and stood shoulder to shoulder. Also Bush even gave him a little shoulder tap as if to say, I'm really in charge.

Like I said it was interesting to watch and I made sure to check it out before the last debate, so I could not only listen to their words but watch their body language as well. I had pretty much been undecided until the last debate.

Last Debate example. When Obama and McCain entered. Obama was on the left and McCain on the right. They shook hands as they greeted, but both men gave each other a little shoulder tap with their other hand at the same time. Asserting their Superiority.

Scarpetta

10-27-2008, 06:45 PM

I thought what pepeperfume said somewhat interesting.

We can all make an informed choice about who we want to lead the world for the next four years. It's not all that hard, considering the information that's available just by turning on the television. We may make a mistake as many of us feel we did with George Bush. But at least it will be our mistake, and one that we will have to live with. We owe at least that much to our future.

I s'pose one could say that one could lessen the chance of making a mistake by becoming really informed on the candidates. Some of what I have read here has only repeated information put out there to not inform but to smear. It is my opinion that that is not only wrong it bears false witness.

I also agree with hcla LOVE...HEALTH...HAPPINESS TO ALL!!!!

Repeating slanderous comments about a Presidential Candidate that has no basis is NOT only disrespectful but serves only to lessen your agument.

Another President said this:

"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Theodore Roosevelt. American President (1858-1919)

Perhaps the last part of that quote ...the worst thing you can do is nothing....is why I responded here.

Barack Obama was raised by a single mother and his grandparents. They didn't have much money, but they taught him values from the Kansas heartland where they grew up. He took out loans to put himself through school. After college, he worked for Christian churches in Chicago, helping communities devastated when steel plants closed. Obama turned down lucrative job oﬀers after law school to return to Chicago, leading a successful voter registration drive. He joined a small law ﬁrm, taught constitutional law and, guided by his Christian faith, stayed active in his community. Obama and his wife Michelle are proud parents of two daughters, Sasha and Malia.

JustBecause

10-29-2008, 04:01 AM

I've posted a link here and I hope you find it as informative as I have. It is a video ofMadeleine Albright from MSNBC.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27427525#27427525

It is previewed by Rachel Maddows commentary, excerpts from a speech by John McCain and statements by Sara Palin and John Lieberman.

Enjoy! :)

Littledevil

10-30-2008, 01:14 AM

Yes, If you are going to quote someone, you definitely want to make sure you get it right and not misconstrue what was said.

jeanne

10-31-2008, 05:36 PM

When Roe vs. Wade was approved the supporters stated it would end having unwanted children and child abuse. As time has shown this is not true. As for the existing law Obama and his supporters also know that born alive abortions are not given life support. I work as an RN. What happens in some circumstances is the baby is put face down in wasted materials. There is more that is done but I would sound as if I am trying to be dramatic. The chance of becoming pregnant from an abortion or incest is less than one-half of one percent but that statement is brought out as the primary reason to allow abortion. Let us start to find a way to heal as a nation especially the women who have abortions and are now dealing with depression. Not because society made them feel guilty but as they have said to me they feel a void they did not expect. Abortion solves the immediate crisis a woman finds herself in but no one talks about how these woman suffer years later. If women were given more love and support when they find themselves pregnant and not wanting the baby they would find an option that would give them peace and closure.

JustBecause

10-31-2008, 08:54 PM

So true LD.

I think Madame Secretary Albright was very gracious about it.

Akashary

11-04-2008, 08:41 PM

Hi Ladies,
I know I drop in late, but although I`m German, I can just agree with LD with her long speech and AP in being honest enough to say so, that means to have courage....and yes, I think the USA definitly needs a political change. America doesn`t make a very good picture in Europe the last years for being so insulting in the question of the Iraq war.
The election is a big thing to talk about,everywhere I go in my town and in other countries.... and all my colleges, friends and family are really excited how it will go....I defenitly will be awake tonight to see, if the US politics are moving in a better direction.....it can not be worse!!
I hope I don`t affend someone with my opinion....but you can be sure, I´m not the only one in Europe with this one.

Akashary;)

Coolwater

11-06-2008, 11:41 AM

We got our change! May it prove to be all the good things that we want it to be!

Littledevil

11-14-2008, 07:03 PM

Akashary you are right. America's image and reputation has been damaged from the last 8 years and I believe and hope the new president will give us what we need. A new and better image for the world to see. All that Bush accomplished in his 8 years in office is choas, much like his own personal vendetas and business tactics.

I do find it convenient that Oil prices in America have dropped so dramatically in the last few weeks. Similar to what happened in the 70's. I believe that the price of gas will fall below the $2 mark but not very far and will remain at or around $2. I will be very surprised if the fall and stay below $1.50 a gallon.

Akashary

11-14-2008, 08:16 PM

Coolwater

11-14-2008, 09:01 PM

It is a relief, isn't it? But I think that unless we get serious about alternative energy sources, the price of oil will just come back up. And by we, I mean everyone, and not just Americans.

Littledevil

11-15-2008, 03:23 PM

Oh I am not complaining about lower gas prices. I want the price to keep dropping. I would like to see it go down to $1.15 a gallon. I just don't see that happening. I mean convenient in that the prices are going down before Bush gets out of office.

We do need to use alternative energy, but it has to be cost effective so that people around the world can afford it. Hubby and I looked into Solar and found it would cost around $15,000 grand to have them installed and setup not including maintainence. How many families can afford that without going into debt. $5,000 or less would be more reasonable.

Coolwater

11-15-2008, 07:52 PM

That sounds very high. Before solar was fashionable, you could get Do It Yourself directions from various places that even now should cost under a thousand dollars. Had you thought about building it yourselves?

We don't get enough light in the winter to really do a good job with solar, nor do we get enough wind to do wind power. Methane might work here: we have lots of gassy cows!

Sam

11-15-2008, 08:21 PM

:eek: I want in on this one.
But first I want to wave Hello to my Friends and tell you that I promise I will be answering your emails and messages soon.:o

OK from where I sit...the price of oil "supposedly" was driven by supply and demand as determined by the stock market and it's investors. Yet the more financially strapped the consumers became while trying supply their personal needs...the higher the prices went! TPTB explains this as panic in the stock market caused by fears of uncertainty as to being able to meet the demands and therefore further driving up the costs of production and being passed on to the consumer.
I didn't buy this explanation then and I certainly don't buy it now!!
When prices began going up we paid it because we had too. Especially here in the US where only large cities offer public transportation and most people have to commute to the larger towns for their jobs. But every household cut back on their consumption and STILL the prices rose!
The world got poorer while the oil companies got richer. While the cost of gasoline continued to stay high we used less but still the high cost of it made us choose between the basic necessities of life. It drove the prices of food so high that many had to choose between feeding their families and keeping their jobs or paying their mortgage payment. The mortgage payments lost out. They mortgage costs for many had been steadily increasing. So people reasoned that as long as they had a job and fed their families that they could hopefully find a home if they lost theirs.
So that's where the housing crisis came into play. Even though we the average people could see this occuring all around us...our govt. pretended it was not happening and took NO steps to stop it. Now either it was done out of sheer ignorance or just not caring on the part of the govt. Either way it shouldn't have happened. There were steps that could have been taken to control this situation but their main focus was not on us but on their own separate agenda.
Suddenly the stock market begins to plunge which starts cutting into their personal finances. Well ...they certainly couldn't have that! So NOW they implement the steps that should have been taken long before.
Those steps helped drive down the price of gas?? I don't think so!!
Because the supply and demand which supposedly drove prices up to begin with...while having decreased somewhat....STILL exists!!
So WHAT DID HAPPEN??
We voted the people who were keeping it high out of office here in the US and as for those others producing and supplying oil throughout the world..???? I wonder where they are and what they are doing.....///
OH YEAH....THEY ARE SUDDENLY DROPPING THE PRICES!!!

Littledevil

11-16-2008, 01:55 AM

Well said Coco. I didnt buy into either. As you mentioned, food prices have gone up, which they said because of gas prices was the reason for that increase. Now that gas is going down, prices on food and other such are still the same. I can spend $300 on food in one trip and feel like I barely bought anything. I clip coupons, do sales, and buy in bulk to freeze for separate dinners. I average about $600 a month for 3 people, 2 cats, and 1 dog. I used to be able to do it for half that amount.

Another thing that has me irritated is the bailout, these CEOs are setting aside money so they can get bonuses. My hard earned tax dollars padding their pockets. :mad:

Oh yeah, Saw Gas price of 1.99 today here in Florida. :):):)

Coolwater

11-16-2008, 08:08 PM

Do you think they have been price fixing?

Scarpetta

11-17-2008, 02:12 PM

A great deal of talk and wishing that gas prices will continue down the under $2 path, but we may as well kiss it goodbye. There is still some oil to be had out there, but not as much as needed. China has entered that quest for demand too. Smaller autos, more efficient ones which MAY have saved some Auto Manufacturers, will be the rule.

Speculation played a part but it isn't that simple. We HAVE to reduce consumption and create alternatives. There are many good possibilities and they need to be pursued.

'Peak oil' is still something to be considered. That liquid gold is not an endless supply. We need to recognize that.

Coolwater

11-17-2008, 04:45 PM

You're preachin' to the choir! Amen!

Hey, did you see Pelosi's remarks about bailing out the auto makers? She said pretty much everything we wanted to hear about attaching strings to the bail out. She almost even added a people's car. Wow.

Also, the Utah Parks Department got a look at the new oil leases that Bush has okayed and is having a fit. I just hope that January gets here before the companies that won the leases have a chance to get started. And even if Obama negates everything Bush is doing right now, no doubt the companies will try to tie this up ion court saying that the sale was fair and square and should be honored. I hope they lose and I hope it costs them enough that it is a lesson not to do that again.

Littledevil

11-17-2008, 06:05 PM

I saw $1.98 for gas yesterday. Didn't ever think I would see that number again and hope it plumits more. Greedy Oil Bastards.:)

We do need to reduce consumption, however, the problem is we can only do so much of that. Even if there was more public transit, busses, trains, & subways. People still have to get to work and other places. I only drive now when I run errands. Plus I go to multiple places in one shot so I don't have to go back out. We don't go out to dinner hardly ever and my husband only drives when he has to go out of town. More afordable cars that run on water, etc is something to work on. Yet, just like oil there is not an endless supply of water, even if it looks like that.

We are all preaching to the choir. Preaching doesn't change a thing. Doing does.

Scarpetta

11-17-2008, 08:44 PM

We have to support energy alternatives. There is a mindset that people get into however when the price of gas falls....we drive more! Gas standards have been spurned by our major auto manufacturers. Now they want capital to stay afloat. Government has the leverage, will they use it?

Littledevil

11-18-2008, 01:48 AM

I totally want Gas to tank. Even with the lower Gas prices I'm not driving more. You are right, people fall back into using more fuel when prices fall. I am totally for alternative, but we can't get tunnel vision either. We have to keep working on multiple sources.

Coolwater

11-18-2008, 03:04 AM

We'll need alternatives. I carpool, and try to combine trips, and my husband got a hybrid, but ultimately it seems to me that we need to do two things. First we need to re-establish mass transportation, mostly trains, I think, and in the regions of the Great lakes, boats. For example, we took the train from Rochester, NY once, and it was an awful trip, made very demanding by the limited number of connections. We had to leave Rochester at nearly midnight, where we slept badly on the crowded, noisy, dirty train, had to spend the day in Chicago (OK, that was fun), and then our train for home left at night! We arrived home after midnight. A trip that should have been completed in a day took the equivalent of two, and it had to be on red eyes, because that's when the trains run. No wonder no one wants to take the train.

The other thing we need to do is rearrange our American towns. Life in the suburbs assumes that you can drive to the shopping centers, which are not even close to walking distance from people's homes. You cannot walk to work, or the library, or the school. We need to re-establish villages here, with trains between them, and trams within them, and make it easier for people to get around without cars. And think how much healthier we'll be when we walk everywhere?

Coolwater

11-18-2008, 03:04 AM

Oh, and what are gas standards, please?

Sam

11-18-2008, 08:05 AM

Gas Standards? MPG (miles per gallon) as well as emissions factors.
AND YES!! Of course they are price fixing and our govt. isn't the only one. That gas gets taxed by Federal , state, and local govt. officials before it gets to us. Do you think the oil producers could get past the Govt. without lining pockets with some of those profits? Oil producers made more money than they have ever made throughout history at a time when the users were going broke. Their stockholders made hefty profits. I'd be willing to bet you that if you saw the actual stock portfolios certain govt. officials you'd see heavy investing in it. If you watched the prices of oil per barrel fluctuate then you would have noticed that even when prices dropped on the barrel it rarely showed at the pumps. And each time gas prices hit a new plateau and people became outraged...the prices would drop just enough to quiet the uproar and yet...the price of oil per barrel was the same as it was before the prices dropped...yet the govt. had not released any of it's surplus to cause the drop..
OPEC drops the number of barrels it produces and releases to keep the prices high. Here at home before the hurricanes...there was ample time to pump extra oil and ship it from that region before those rigs were closed and then damaged. But did they? NO!! And why were the southern states unable to get gas shipments from other parts of the US after the hurricanes? And when we were able to get it..why was it only the most expensive grades? NO ONE HAS YET OFFERED TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS!! Their pitiful explanation was simply that our area was supplied by the rigs in the gulf that were damaged by the hurricanes.
As for bailing out the three top automakers?? Heck NO!! Make them file a chapter 13 bankruptcy!! Force them to do major restructuring. I don't give a rat's patooty if someone working for that company has to have a drop in pay from making $61.00 down to $32.00 an hour. That is FAR more money than most ordinary people make. Hell people in this state don't even dream of making that kind of an hourly wage!! The only people in this state who make that kind of money are doctors, lawyers and government officials.
They started and continued to produce gas guzzling vehicles when they knew full well what the cost of oil would be and what would happen.
As for the bank bail outs...here's a concept... fire half the CEO's and cut the salaries of the ones who are left in half. That should shave close to a billion dollars off right there. Or better yet...have them work for minimum wage and use loopholes to keep from paying them benefits like they make their local employees.:mad: Maybe then they would think twice about how they do business. I realize that we had no choice because of the economic crisis but they along with the govt. made this crisis.

Sam

11-18-2008, 08:21 AM

Alternative sources? Yes we definitely have to find alternative sources. We should have been doing so all along. Not just here at home but everyone.
The layers of the earth are made of a delicate balance. Draining fluids such as oil and water depletes resources necessary to maintain that balance. It results in various sized sinkholes throughout the world as well as changing the amount of pressure needed to keep the plates from shifting so easily under the geometric pressure. I don't deny that technology in the right hands is a good thing but over the course of time the vast populations of the earth have depleted and in some cases destroyed valuable resources that have ruined the natural balance of things. It doesn't matter if you look at it through a religious point of view or a scientific point of view the results are still the same.
NOW one more question before I climb down off the soap box...
Did any of you notice that as the price of fuel oils climbed...so did the costs of cooking oil?? It surely wasn't just because of the grocery price increases.
Anyone know why??

Scarpetta

11-18-2008, 04:48 PM

As for bailing out the three top automakers?? Heck NO!! Make them file a chapter 13 bankruptcy!! Force them to do major restructuring. I don't give a rat's patooty if someone working for that company has to have a drop in pay from making $61.00 down to $32.00 an hour. That is FAR more money than most ordinary people make. Hell people in this state don't even dream of making that kind of an hourly wage!! The only people in this state who make that kind of money are doctors, lawyers and government officials.
They started and continued to produce gas guzzling vehicles when they knew full well what the cost of oil would be and what would happen.
As for the bank bail outs...here's a concept... fire half the CEO's and cut the salaries of the ones who are left in half. That should shave close to a billion dollars off right there. Or better yet...have them work for minimum wage and use loopholes to keep from paying them benefits like they make their local employees.:mad: Maybe then they would think twice about how they do business. I realize that we had no choice because of the economic crisis but they along with the govt. made this crisis.

So letting 3 Million jobs plus go into the hopper for 'will they ever become available again or won't they' is the answer? Think depression, deep depression. How about the pension plans. All those people who took alternatives to pension rather than increased wages? SOL?

I can see your anger at mis-management, both auto and financial. What you don't see is the millions of jobs attached to those entities, and the companies who do business with them, and the employees. Billions of dollars in CEO bonuses is shameful but millions of employees shut out of livelyhoods because of them?

We will see a bailout for the auto industry. It is key to our economy...now. Ten years, twenty or more perhaps a move to 'something else', but not now unless you want to experience deep depression.

Coolwater

11-18-2008, 07:29 PM

Ah, gas standards = a required MPG rating; I wasn't familiar with the term.

Oh, I'm sure you're right about politician involvement in the petroleum industry, Coco; it was a semi-rhetorical question. The Shrub is in oil money up to the highest tips of his little leaves, and he's the president, for heaven's sake. As a rich Texan he comes by it naturally, and his emphasis on cronyism means that any related industry is profiting very nicely. It's that cronyism that has wrecked our economy. "Benefit your friends and the people who benefit you, and the rest be damned. They're all just fools anyway, not like us."

And yes, the folks who have been sucking the life blood out of their employees and the economy deserve huge penalties and no bail-out. But Scarpetta is also right: if we don't bail out the auto industry, far more "little" people will be hurt than the number of upper management people. There will be not just a few hundred jobs lost by people who can afford to retire on what they've already stolen, but millions of jobs lost by people who can't afford to retire or send their kids to school, or afford health care.

One way to look at it is to think of the CEOs and upper management of these industries as using their employees and the people in the dependent industries as human shields. It's revolting, but short of nationalizing those industries (SOCIALISM!! :eek:), there isn't much choice beyond attaching lots of strings to the bail outs. Monitoring of the dispersal of the money won't happen until Bush's buddies are out of office, and the economy may not wait that long.

They have us over a barrel - an oil barrel :D. Oh, and littledevil, it's only taken me days, but, "I want gas to tank"??? GROAN!

Sam

11-18-2008, 08:36 PM

Hi Scarpetta.
I don't disagree with you on the need for it and the trickle down effect. My hubby is an auto mechanic so I know full well what it will do and who it will affect. I know we have no choice really but to agree to a bail out. Like Coolwater said..we are human sheilds. But we will have to draw the line sometime at some point and hold them accountable.
Socialism?? Maybe so...but we should have a say about what happens to our money when it's in govt. hands. Our govt. is acting as if we have handed them a blank check to an account with an endless supply of funds to reward a bunch of negligent corrupt businessmen. But no one in the govt. seems to be pointing out that the very people who are expected to pay for this are dead broke! If we can barely put food on the table how the heck are we going to pay 700 billion dollars on top of what we already pay.
I do feel for those people and their pension. Especially since the money we have all paid into Social Security all these years generation after generation has been thrown away.
Where do we draw the line? Who is next waiting for a bail out? If we do it for them then we should do it for others who have conducted business this way. So where does it end? These will not only become our debts but those of our children and grand children etc...
I have a question for you. Since the economy of almost every country in the entire world has become dependent on oil......
Who should we fear more? Those who control the oil supplies or someone with a nuclear bomb??
If someone drops a nuclear bomb then the people are wiped out and of no use...but then neither is the land that is exposed to the nuclear fall out. Not to mention that you risk extinction of your own country in the process.
But the ones who hold the oil supplies literally have control of every country dependent on that oil and therefore control the people living there.
For me....finding immediate solutions to our dependancy on oil is a must. Not just for our country but for every country.
OK I've rattled on enough. Someone else's turn.:p

JustBecause

11-18-2008, 08:49 PM

Here's some news - The CEO and 6 other top execs of the Goldman Sachs investment bank gave up their 8 figure bonus compensation and opted to take only their 6 figure (> 500,000) salaries for 2008. Still they're having to let 3200 of about 32,000 employees go.

I can't get my mind around it. :confused: We live in a world where one person can make 8 figures in compensation, while another only gets 8 cents an hour for his/her labor, and still another can't find work at all.

Not only that, somewhere there are oil company execs that get to keep their 8 (or 9?) figure compensation for making those crazy profits that drove the Goldman Sachs execs to have to 'sacrifice' (heavy on sarcasm here - I could do a lot with 600K :rolleyes:) along with the rest of us. Maybe we should want the oil execs to tank.

Insane...

You're right Coco, world dependence on oil is way too scary.

Coolwater

11-18-2008, 10:11 PM

Coco, that was eloquent. I wish Barney Frank could see it; he'd be someone who would use your words to good effect with Congress. In fact he must have a website, so if you don't mind, I'm going to copy what you've said, and send it to him with the address to this discussion.

Scarpetta

11-18-2008, 10:11 PM

Hi Scarpetta.
...but we should have a say about what happens to our money when it's in govt. hands. COLOR="Purple"]That is why we vote and why we bitch about it perhaps! Those we vote for act in our behalf as representative OF US! [/COLOR

I do feel for those people and their pension. Especially since the money we have all paid into Social Security all these years generation after generation has been thrown away.

COLOR="Purple"]That Trust fund gets raided but its supposed to be paid back! It gets trickier after that! [/COLOR

Where do we draw the line? Who is next waiting for a bail out? If we do it for them then we should do it for others who have conducted business this way. So where does it end? These will not only become our debts but those of our children and grand children etc...

COLOR="Purple"]We could scrap the auto industry in America and all go out and buy foreign? Many have because Honda, Toyota and others gave us what we wanted, reliability and fuel economy. Think those foreign companies would all establish plants on US Soil? Labor's back would be broken which some interests would be most in favor of! I hear India isn't too bad a place to live! Not.[/COLOR]

I have a question for you. Since the economy of almost every country in the entire world has become dependent on oil......

Who should we fear more? Those who control the oil supplies or someone with a nuclear bomb??

COLOR="Purple"]We shouldn't fear. Cautious yes, pragmatic yes. Sometimes just being aware of differences can help head off problems. Many don't buy that, but I do believe diplomacy is better than the threat of annihilation FOR ALL SIDES![/COLOR]

If someone drops a nuclear bomb then the people are wiped out and of no use...but then neither is the land that is exposed to the nuclear fall out. Not to mention that you risk extinction of your own country in the process.
But the ones who hold the oil supplies literally have control of every country dependent on that oil and therefore control the people living there.

COLOR="Purple"]US has enough for maybe 15 years. Guess we need alternative sources. As you just said[/COLOR

For me....finding immediate solutions to our dependancy on oil is a must. Not just for our country but for every country.

OK I've rattled on enough. Someone else's turn.:p

You voiced an opinion, that is not rattling!

Another issue is what Bush in his last days in office is doing .

Three officials from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, including its legal counsel, whom President Bush appointed, said the proposal would overturn 40 years of civil rights law prohibiting job discrimination based on religion.

Scarpetta

11-18-2008, 10:15 PM

Excuse the previous post. Too many distractions! Read best you can. I said something, I think, in between the 'purples'!

Coolwater

11-19-2008, 12:50 AM

Hmm...

...but we should have a say about what happens to our money when it's in govt. hands. That is why we vote and why we bitch about it perhaps! Those we vote for act in our behalf as representative OF US!

I do feel for those people and their pension. Especially since the money we have all paid into Social Security all these years generation after generation has been thrown away.

That Trust fund gets raided but its supposed to be paid back! It gets trickier after that!

Where do we draw the line? Who is next waiting for a bail out? If we do it for them then we should do it for others who have conducted business this way. So where does it end? These will not only become our debts but those of our children and grand children etc...

We could scrap the auto industry in America and all go out and buy foreign? Many have because Honda, Toyota and others gave us what we wanted, reliability and fuel economy. Think those foreign companies would all establish plants on US Soil? Labor's back would be broken which some interests would be most in favor of! I hear India isn't too bad a place to live! Not.

I have a question for you. Since the economy of almost every country in the entire world has become dependent on oil......

Who should we fear more? Those who control the oil supplies or someone with a nuclear bomb??

We shouldn't fear. Cautious yes, pragmatic yes. Sometimes just being aware of differences can help head off problems. Many don't buy that, but I do believe diplomacy is better than the threat of annihilation FOR ALL SIDES!

If someone drops a nuclear bomb then the people are wiped out and of no use...but then neither is the land that is exposed to the nuclear fall out. Not to mention that you risk extinction of your own country in the process.
But the ones who hold the oil supplies literally have control of every country dependent on that oil and therefore control the people living there.

US has enough for maybe 15 years. Guess we need alternative sources. As you just said

For me....finding immediate solutions to our dependancy on oil is a must. Not just for our country but for every country.

OK I've rattled on enough. Someone else's turn.

Coolwater

11-19-2008, 12:58 AM

Scarpetta

11-19-2008, 04:44 AM

You left off the beginning and ending brackets, when you cut and pasted: COLOR="Purple"] and [/COLOR . [/color] has both brackets, but the word has to be caps. (I'm going to be as computer savvy as Islandkat and Maris before I'm through. :D )

Then they'll change the programs. :(

Actually I quoted the whole thing and tried to fill in between.....by quoting myself! When I realized that was in error I backed it out.....and backed too far! That could have been when the cat sat on the keyboard and kicked off the mouse or was that when the nephew let the dog in and the cat left skid marks on my face! Anyway my apologies to cocoknight and thankyou coolwater for clearing it up.

President Bush however is not acting as a lame duck. He is very, very busy. As its clock runs out, the Bush administration is trying to open-up drilling all over the Rockies and Alaska, to green-light oil shale leasing, and to weaken the Endangered Species Act. Though sad, it's no surprise, coming as it does from the same crowd that designed a misguided national energy policy in secret meetings with the oil, gas and coal industries.

That is two things I've become aware of and the continued push for rule change many of you have become aware of that could void state laws that require insurance plans to cover contraceptives and require hospitals to offer emergency contraception to rape victims.

The cats tread marks are more welcome than Bush's.

Sam

11-19-2008, 08:23 AM

Coolwater I don't mind if you copy my posts.
Just Because they could afford to take a cut in pay even further and still keep those employees on and I think they should have to do that. If we do manage to find alternative sources and they aren't the suppliers then it WILL be the oil companies who need a bailout and I hope and pray we are just as generous to them as they have been to us. After all it was their greed that started this snowball.
Scarpetta I like the way you think. And no apologies are necessary. I usually have my family bugging me whenever I'm on the pc. They totally mess up my train of thought at times.
As for Bush....well considering where he's had his head for at least the past eight years...cat scratches would probably go well with the skid marks on his neck and around his ears!:rolleyes:

Scarpetta

11-19-2008, 02:56 PM

I keep thinking that China wants nothing more than to be able to sell their 'Chinese cars' in the US. Just what they might be looking for would be closed GM Plants to buy for a song. GM supposedly is spread too thin with more plants, dealerships than profitable.

It will be very shortly when we see Chinese autos on US roads. Any auto manufacturing done in China by foreign companies has to give a percentage of the business to China. Would American Free Enterprise demand the same? If Toyota, Honda are examples the answer is no.

I hope we have American Auto Manufacturing alive and viable to compete with these very real challenges.

Littledevil

11-19-2008, 05:51 PM

For my comment of I want Gas to tank. What I mean is even when gas is $2.00 a gallon now oil companies are still making a crap load of profits. In the 50's gas was $.25 to .50 a gallon. the 70's came and oil skyrocketted, it came back down and settled between .75 to $1.00 a gallon. Opec is complaining to other oil companies to stop dropping their prices forcing Opec to drop theirs. OPEC is mainly owned by the middle east. So in short a little retribution is all I am asking for.

As for the economy, big companies are not the only ones to blame for the mess we are in. They are a major part and cause. We, the little people, struggle with our everyday lives and surviving, however, that didn't stop us from buying gas guzzling vehicles, using up our credit cards to the max, or buying homes we really couldn't afford. There is blame on all sides! That is not to say that we can't find a way out of this mess at all. It comes down to living with in our means and everyone making sacrifices.

As for free enterprise, we bail out the finiancial side, the auto side, & you ask who is next after that? Maybe the little people, but I doubt it. Things will change but not quick enough for our pockets. Hubby and I have our own business and we do alright. Well enough that I can stay home with our son and I am grateful for that. My hubby has to work his tail off to make what we do. If our business went under, who do you think will bail us out? No One! It will be our own problem and government wont care what happens to us and will take the attitude so sorry for your luck. I don't agree with the bail out, but I do see the reprocusions of the lost jobs and such. Do you think the CEO's of the Financial markets (Banks, Credit Cards, Insurance) care's if I can't pay my mortgage, or any of my other bills or feed my family? They don't care they still want their money and don't care how they get it. I will put the bail out to you this way. Buglars break into my house, eat my food, sleep in my bed, and take my valuables, I guess the right thing to do would be to let them, right? Wrong. Everything is supposed to be EARNED. There is a saying "There is no such thing as a Free Lunch". There is always a cost or price to pay. So should the irresponsible CEO's of these companies have to pay the price. You can't even die for Free.

A line must drawn and accountability must be forced. Would we let a murdered go free. Well in the case of bin laden I guess we did. The rest of us loose everything.

I have paid into social security as has everyone else, but I am not counting on it being there for my family or for me. There wont be anything left in the next 35 years.

Should we be scared of nuclear bombs or the oil companies? No we shouldn't be scared. Fear is what has driven the fall of nations through out history. The US has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out the human race in its entirety 4 times over. 6 billion people gone. Russia has the same capability. Great Power comes Great responsibility. Recklessness comes great destruction. I could go into religion at this point but I'll save it for another topic. But I will say this, religion will have nothing to do with our destruction, we will do it ourselves.

For this country to survive, we have to get back to the fundamentals that this nation was founded on. We used to be a great country, full of opportunity, hopes, and dreams. Now most people's dreams; they watch going down the drain. Everything taken from them because of how this country has been run. The legacy that we leave our children and grand children should be a bright one, unfortunetly, it's not. We can't do this on our own, everyone needs to pitch in and work together.

Coolwater

11-19-2008, 05:56 PM

You got distracted by cat scratches? Owie. I'd just figured you were in a hurry.

Another voice heard from: I was on the phone with a Texan CPA yesterday, and his opinion is that the auto manufacturers should do Chapter 11 bankruptcies because it would enable them to slip out of the union contracts. Like many Southerners, Clay regard unions as a great evil, and he is sure that it is unreasonable union demands that have sucked the life out of the auto industries. Two comments on that: Barney Frank said this morning that that flat wasn't true, the contracts would still be valid in case of Chapter 11. He also said that the unions have already renegotiated in an effort to keep the factories open. People seem to forget that unions do not want industry to go under.

Second, Clay said that the foreign auto companies with factories in the US make more money because they are all located in the South where there aren't any unions to jack up salaries and benefits.

He was wrong about that, too. There's a Subaru plant not ten minutes from here, and it's one of our bigger employers (along with Lilly, Purdue, Caterpillar, and a smelly corn syrup plant known locally as "Stinky Staley's"). Indiana, that is, "here," also has Honda, Toyota and Isuzu plants. I think that the unions are taking a bum rap for Big Three mismanagement.

Isn't it interesting that U.S. spells "us"? I've always liked that.

Scarpetta

11-19-2008, 09:44 PM

...and a lot of Union members are 'us' too!

There has always been a strong faction that attempts to bust unions. So much labor law affecting work conditions for employees has been promoted by organized labor. Your CPA friend was talking the 'Republican line' of trickle down economics that has us in the pickle we are in now. Blaming labor for an International financial crises and more specifically labor for mismanaged auto manufacturers in the US?

A middle class rose out of auto manufacturing in the US from WWII on, and they made some good cars. Chrysler was given a bailout few years back. They paid it all back with interest. If the auto industry cannot survive in the US, what can?

Sam

11-20-2008, 01:15 AM

Your friend is wrong about the South in respect to having the auto manufacturers here. If there is one in Georgia, Florida or Alabama I have never seen it and don't know about it. We are over run by dealerships though. Each company has at least one in every town most towns have one on just about every corner. We have very few factory jobs in South Georgia. They are only in the larger towns. Most factories won't come here and those that do close within a year or two. They claim the taxes are too high and there are too many restrictions. The wealthy blue bloods keep it that way because they don't want factories messing up the beauty of their retirement properties. So we are left with many small businesses dictated by nepotism or stores which pay minimum wage and have no benefits. Most fall below the govt. guidelines for mandatory insurance coverage and access. The Welfare system is virtually non existant here and those who become homeless are given a ride to the local jail and told to leave the state.

OK now about the Unions...well you'd have to go back through history which would make this wayyy too long but...
The Unions came out of the fact that employers were giving extremely low wages to people who were dying in the mines and factories while the employer reaped all the benefits. So the common man formed groups to try to force their employers to let them share in the fruits of their labor. The intent was the employees would get more and the employers would have less profits for themselves and this worked fine until the employers found ways that they could pass on the cost of the increase wages and benefits back to the common man. That only meant the common man had to demand more to keep up. This snowballed and affected the people who were not Union too. Each time we get an increase in the minimum wage (or any wage increase for that matter) it pushes up the cost of what we pay. So if Union workers could get what they want without their employers passing their costs to us then that system would work. But that isn't what happens.
Here their are very few Unions and those are in middle and northern Georgia. Labor Laws?? EXCUSE ME WHILE I ROLL WITH LAUGHTER!! We have very few of those and only two people employed by the state to enforce them and since every business man knows loopholes to get around them...they virtually don't exist.

Sam

11-20-2008, 01:54 AM

:rolleyes: Now for the deal with China...Since we have such a large financial debt to them which ballooned during Bush's term in office....well that is a possibility but not a likelyhood. The American economy is already flooded with goods from China because of the cheap labor. It is my understanding that China doesn't have a middle class in the sense that we do here. There are the wealthy factory owners and the low wage earners. We buy everything from them including auto parts. The quality has always been poor but the costs were cheap enough that we could easily replace what broke. Why did we become so dependant on China's goods?? Because it was the only way we could afford to buy what we needed and still have a few bucks left in our pockets. Our cost of living had already ballooned to the point that if we had not...we would have faced then what we now face. Manufacturers moved their businesses their because they could also use the Chinese people for cheaper labor and not have to buy the high labor costs in the US and our govt. looked the other way...so there is the beginning of "outsourcing our jobs". Now outsourcing started out as a great concept...we go to other countries and supply them with some of our jobs and those countries in turn would open businesses here and be able to sell us those goods cheaper than it would cost those countries to ship them here. But again the govt. dropped the ball and looked the other way. The other countries didn't come here and open factories for their products except for those in the auto industry. So jobs previously held by Americans and the quality products we made and sold no longer existed. So the foriegn automakers were able to sell us their cars at lower prices but also being savvy businessmen paid attention to the world economics especially the gas situation...while at the same time they gave us the combination of comfort and practicality. The US auto makers STILL kept producing (and convincing Americans to buy their) oversized SUV's. But in the end the practicality shown by the foriegn car companies won out.
As we've all said before....there is plenty of blame to go around. But if it helps any...I didn't buy a house that I couldn't afford or a gas guzzling SUV or fall into the credit card trap. But it only means that I have far less debt than others. So in the immortal words of comedian Flip Wilson..."We might've come here on different ships but we're rocking in the same boat now!!"

Coolwater

11-20-2008, 04:15 AM

My history of Georgia book is in a box in the attic, Coco. Do you recall why it is that the Southern states managed to avoid having unions? My poor recollection is that the cloth mill owners and other owners told the employees that the Yankee union organizers would force desegregation on them and they would lose their jobs to the nigras, who would then ruin our Southern way of life, but there had to be more to it than that.

(And before anyone fusses at me, I'm a graduate of the University of Georgia at Athens, and a resident of GA for some dozen years total.)

Scarpetta

11-20-2008, 02:25 PM

Labor Law actually is part of college curriculums cocoknight and you would be surprised how many fought for by workers even Georgia benefits from.

The History is rich and ample . Seems however that you too have bought into the far right maxim that Labor is responsible for the ills of American industry.

American Workers can be grateful for the bloody fights that have preceeded us. I don't believe Labor is ready to go back when these things plus many more have been fought for.

Fair Labor Standards Act
Employee Retirement Income Security Act
Family and Medical Leave Act
Occupational Safety and Health Act
Fair Employment and Housing Act

Coolwater

11-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Scarpetta, I think that Coco is agreeing with you more than you're reading. Isn't it the case that the federal laws apply mostly to employers who have interstate commerce, and a certain minimum number of employees? I think that Coco is saying that she hasn't seen much direct benefit from those laws. She's right: Georgia has few labor laws, and virtually no enforcement.

It is also the case that with the Republican administration, there has been no push to enforce the labors laws. If the unions and groups like the ACLU weren't keeping some pressure on, violations would be the norm.

Coco, some of the benefits Scarpetta is talking about come about obliquely sometimes. Example: until about 1976, if a woman in GA was widowed, her children were the legal property of her father-in-law.

1976, can you believe it? And while it was rare that the courts awarded custody to the father-in-law, still widows had to petition the court for custody of their own kids. Women made a small fuss about it, but when you've just been widowed, you're so busy trying to rearrange your life, that you just go to court, sign the damn papers and get on with the more important stuff.

I was living in GA when we were working on the Equal Rights Amendment. One of the arguments against the amendment was that states had fixed things up so that women had "all the rights they need" and making women equal to men under the law would remove protections women had that men did not. Of course, the pro-amendment jurists held up quite a number of laws that were discriminatory to show how silly that argument is. One of the worst was the law I've just mentioned. We lost the amendment, but gained an oblique benefit in that several truly awful laws were hastily removed from the books to prevent people from pressuring their represented officials to vote for the amendment.

That was not a union project, although the unions were trying to get the ERA passed: I'm offering it as an example of an oblique benefit. Even in Georgia, you work in an environment that has been improved in similar ways by federal laws and laws that were passed to achieve rights for employees to claim that there is no need for unions.

Oh, and I just got a really good job. I'm so pleased I could sing!

Scarpetta

11-20-2008, 08:34 PM

Glad for the new job.

I see your point but it is that nebulous 'but if wages were lower, prices would be too', that creeps in. No one expects companies to operate at a net loss, but I am reminded of what Henry Ford said and I paraphrase him. I want to pay my employees enough so they can buy my cars! We all know that many don't. Domestic, agriculture and unfortuneately many areas don't have much protection under State laws, and federal too. What is Union membership down to, about 8%? Collective voices make for bigger and louder and business knows this, and they pressure individuals into thinking their jobs will go if you Unionize. In the environment we are currently in Unions will lose even more. Tis a sad day for workers. New energy industry is needed.

Akashary

11-20-2008, 11:07 PM

Although there is nothing I can say about all these things, but it`s very interesting to follow your conversation and your opinions.
It`s like a personal peek into the real Amerika with real people...thank you all.

Akashary;)

Coolwater

11-20-2008, 11:46 PM

You're welcome! I believe the those of us talking are all from different portions of the US. I live in the Midwest, in Indiana, just south of the Great Lakes, and Coco is in Georgia, in the South, on the East Coast, which has a very different history. You can see that we also have different notions about how economic issues work!

How do people see questions about the recession, unions, and liberal versus conservative in the different parts of Germany?

Sam

11-21-2008, 08:54 AM

CONGRATS ON YOUR NEW JOB COOLWATER!!
Akashary it helps when you read this if you imagine the US as Europe. Look at each state as a separate country with it's own history. Then imagine all those countries given a certain set of rules as a guideline being overseen by a government body which determines a rule. We are similar to a pyramid. You have your local government to account to, then your state government to account to, then your federal government which supercedes those.

Yes I am agreeing with you to a point. Unions are a GREAT concept. We do need them. I wish we did have them here!! Not having them has kept us from being able to get better jobs and higher wages. Without them employers go unchecked and employees see NONE of the profits. My thing with the unions isn't actually with the unions but with the employers of the companies they are working for. The top echelons don't actually share the benefits with their employees (generally speaking of course, Ford is an exception but I'll tell you why later). What they do is raise their prices to make up for what they give their employees so they don't take a loss. They continue making the same profits as before.

Scarpetta there is a ton of corruption(or should I say manipulation) of the legal system here. It used to be a lot worse but it still exist. Both state and Federal laws are frequently ignored by the local government here.
I guess I do need to fill in some history. Physical abuse of prisoners(in every way imaginable) existed here until the mid 1980's. Gay people were physically ran out of town until that time too. Homes are leased here with the floors falling out of them and dangerous wiring and leaking ceilings and walls with deadly mold build up.. Rent cost a minimum of $650.00 a month and go as high as $1,200.00 a month for these. Yet no judge will order the owners to repair them and since they can all rent them out and get away with it...there isn't any decent housing. Most ordinary people can't afford to buy homes because of the low wages. We had the same corrupt (common knowledge he was heading the drug trade) sheriff for twenty years. Yes people ran against him and no matter how many people voted against him ...he always seemed to win the elections. He retired last year.
This area was founded by wealthy millionaires from the northeast (mostly New York) where they made a lot more money. They built homes here to escape the cold winters up north. Close enough to the Gulf of Mexico to enjoy the warmth but far enough away so they would escape the full brundt of the hurricanes. They use their money to put politicians in power that will keep this area from becoming industrialized. And the money flows to their families from generation to generation. They hire a handful of employees at minimum wage to work for them and they don't have to provide benefits because they don't have the number of employees to meet the government requirements for it.

Sam

11-21-2008, 09:37 AM

Their families collect all the profits and they are abusive to their employees physically, emotionally and sexually. Lawsuits get filed but the courts won't uphold the law. Once in a while they might get a small fine which goes to the courts but not the person wronged. Attorneys here sell out their clients. Even if they have an iron clad case they make deals behind closed doors to accept personal payoffs for themselves and when they appear in front of the judge with the client they make it look as if they just lost the case. This isn't just me being paranoid. It's a known fact around here. Our legal issues have even been spoofed on tv.
Yes there was a time of about 10 years here when we had industry and it was flourishing. We built furniture, mobile homes, auto parts, windows...we had textile mills, lumber mills and were major producers of cotton and beef. We had meat packaging plants. But when the workers tried to unionize they were threatened with not only losing their jobs but they were blacklisted from getting any other job. Employers called your previous employer and if they suspected you were even remotely interested in joining a union then you didn't get the job. They put people in personnel to filter out those who wanted to unionize. The question of wheter or not you were in a union or had ever been a union member was even on the job applications and they also included an agreement which you had to sign on the application that they could order you to take a polygraph test at the request of the employer should you be hired. People had families to feed and times were hard. Then we had the gas crisis where gas had to be rationed. All those jobs dwindled away. The companies couldn't make a profit and stay in business because the local goverment had set the local tax rates so high for the businesses that the gas crisis finished them off. Since then they have managed to keep most industries from here. Now everything is either those small businesses owned by those wealthy who keep the profits in their family tree and claim the business is failing so they can use it for a tax shelter or you have companies like dollar stores where only management can get benefits and make .50 cents more than minimum wage. Those hire "Assistant Managers" and have them do the manager jobs so they can pay them only .25 cents an hour over minimum wage. Everything else is pretty much restaurants and healthcare jobs.
You can no longer own livestock unless you have a farm that is regulated by the federal govt. What you are allowed to have on property you own is also controlled by the local govt. zoning laws that are so strict it is rediculous. We couldn't go back to simpler times if we had to because there are so many local laws in place that it would be forbidden. Here if you can't afford your electric bill..no govt. office helps you. They instead refer you to the local churches to ask for donations. Each church will only donate you $15.00 of the money and you have to agree to attend services at their church to get it. I know a lot of people who have had to do this. Mostly single mothers. And if your lights get turned off you have to answer to the local DFCS who usually decide that you are an unfit parent and place your children in foster care until you get back on your feet financially and take them to court to get them back. Situations like this happen all the time here and the local DFCS boasts on local tv that they have no one on welfare who isn't working. OF COURSE THEY DON'T!! If you lose your job and go there for help...they simply turn you away. Yet you stand in line to buy what you can and in front of you stands an illegal immigrant who pulls out a wad of $100.00's big enough to choke a horse so he can get to a food stamp card that pays for the 3 to 4 hundred dollars worth of groceries he has. But it isn't the immigrant we blame. It's the govt. that allows him to be here and gives him benefits from the taxes we pay.
OK enough for tonight...;)

Scarpetta

11-21-2008, 02:56 PM

Kinda sounds like the "Lights Went Out in Georgia!"

I went to school there many years ago.

You mentioned 'Faith Based Initiatives'. Another one of those twisted Bush programs. Now I hope that either gets a critical eye revamping or a scraping soon.

Some States are run better than others apparently. Try Oregon and Washington. We have our moments but guess I will stay here.

Anyone going to the Inauguration in January? Better check with your Congressman/woman soon for tickets.

Littledevil

11-21-2008, 06:21 PM

Wow, what a mounth full!!!

Florida definitily has its :confused: moments. Between voting problems, insurance companies and hurricanes, etc. At least I think we have a govenor who will do something about our problems. No Unions here that I am aware of.

Akashary

11-21-2008, 08:44 PM

How do people see questions about the recession, unions, and liberal versus conservative in the different parts of Germany?

Coolwater, I have not much time today, but tomorrow I`m free and I will give you a little peek on Germany, if you like.

Akashary;)

Coolwater

11-22-2008, 02:06 AM

I'm stunned, Coco. I thought things were better than that, but I mostly was living in Athens and Milledgeville, and it wasn't as bad there. There is an attorney in Athens named John Barrow. He may be in government by now: he's the first candidate to whom I'd ever given a donation, but alas for us, he lost that election. The Barrows are such an old family that they have a county named after them, and John's dad is a judge, and his mother is a prof at the university. You might contact John to ask what can be done now that there is a new federal administration.

Yes, thank you, Akashary, I'd like that.

Sam

11-22-2008, 06:25 AM

Things are better the farther north you go. The ties of nepotism have lost their grip. The better job opportunities start around the Macon/Forsyth area. There is corruption in that area but no where near the levels you see in southern Georgia.
Milledgeville and Athens are both nice places as is Helen and Savannah. I absolutely do not care for Atlanta. But the towns with the larger colleges seem to be ran better than most.
Hinesville is not a good place to live in my opinion.
Here in order to lease a place to live you have to pay a security deposit plus first and last months rent, agree to and wait for a credit check, provide references and give them the title or tag reciept to your vehicle and sign an agreement that if you break the lease they can take your car!
My daughter and grand-daughter can't live with me because the area is zoned as single family units and they consider the two of them as a separate family.
Funny though...the illegal immigrants can have as many as 15 people live in the same house in the exact same area. Why?? Because the landlords can charge them ten dollars to twenty dollars each per day for living there.
But again..we don't blame them...they are just trying to live out a dream. We blame the govt. We are not racially divided here. We stay here and band together and fight to change things as best we can for the sake of all of us.
The power company that supplies middle Georgia automatically doubles your utility rate during summer and winter months.
I hate it here but the hubby would never leave this place. It's home to him. His family and friends are here. I love Florida but hubby won't move there because of the hurricanes. We moved out in the country for peace and quiet because living in town was so stressful. One year later...developers started buying up the bankrupt farms, had the zoning laws changed and turned them into apartment complexes. There hasn't been peace and quiet since.

hcla

11-22-2008, 04:19 PM

Scarpetta.....yes...Oregon has it together....I'm staying...even when the timber industry went under....re-training and new jobs were created....here in Southern Oregon...if one is involved in Healthcare...you can make a good living...our land laws, and prices attracted alot of wealthy retirees, California transplants, ect...and so there is'nt alot here for young people starting out, but, but it depends on the field of work one is in.

Coolwater

11-22-2008, 06:07 PM

Well, I'm looking at the map, Coco, and if I have the right Hinesville, you're half way between Savannah and Brunswick. Has the development been in the triangle between Ft. Stewart, Hinesville, and Savannah? What is in the strip between Hinesville and I95?

Sam

11-23-2008, 08:56 AM

You are in the wrong area for me. I have friends and family in those places so I've visited them and know what goes on there.
You'd have to go much further south on your map to find me.;) I'm 36 miles north of Tallahasse Florida and 32 miles south of Valdosta Georgia (which I love). I'll pm you the exact location so you can get a better idea. But yes you are right about the location of Hinesville.
HCLA we too went through re-training but even most of those jobs have disappeared so it's as if you are living in a constant state of flux. There isn't anything here for young people at all.
No recreation except through the local church groups. Every time a bar or night club opens (which can take up to a year to get it pass the city planning commision), they push to close it down so they go out of business within a year or two. All the shops and restaurants in the downtown area close at 5 or 6 pm. Restaurants all close by 9 pm. After that.... there are five convenience stores open on the edges of town. Then Wal-mart stays open 24 hours except on Thanksgiving and Christmas. If you get hungry you can choose between Waffle House, Burger King and WhataBurger.
Most people don't even know when it's a voting day unless they try to buy beer. There is almost no coverage of it on local tv or the local newspapers.
Very few stories about the crime here actually make it into the local newspaper. The only time they do print any criminal activity is when they know that most of the town already knows so they can't keep it quiet.
We used to have a public swimming pool but someone got shot there after hours so they closed it. We had public tennis courts but they closed them too. We used to be able to run and exercise at the local high school tracks but a woman was raped there so they put stop to that. If you are seen driving through a shopping center parking lot more than twice by police you get ticketed for breaking the local cruising laws and if they catch you a second time you go to jail. No fishing after dark and of course you have to have a license. No hunting unless it is hunting season and of course you have to have a license and there are a ton of laws that go with those two.
No rifle ranges to teach gun safety and practice.
Youth here only get to play at parks with parental supervision in daylight hours. There are three parks.
Yep unless you can sneak off to a bigger town like Valdosta or Tallahassee then you can forget nightlife, romantic evenings out, dancing, music...well pretty much any kind of entertainment.:(

Coolwater

11-23-2008, 11:03 PM

Good lord, that is awful. I'd go nuts in that environment.

Scarpetta

11-24-2008, 03:50 PM

You love Valdosta cocoknight? wouldn't that be close enough for husband to get his family/friend fix and YOU would actually like it?

I guess I am missing what type of mindset permits the picture you have painted. Apathy, extreme conservatism, or what? This is the USA.

Sam

11-25-2008, 05:59 AM

:rolleyes: Actually Scarpetta it's a lot of both. As I stated earlier...the wealthy control the media in this part of Georgia. They use their money to put the politicians into office that will do there bidding. Especially the local politicians. They have a strong hold on this area. Of course the wealthy are mostly republican. A lot also has to do with religious beliefs that the world around us is filled with evil. Any changes that might effect life as they know it will also bring more evil with it. So wealthy republicans are able to use that fear to their advantage.
Most people around here are very closed minded. I'm not the typical south Georgian. But those who do think like me have hung our hopes on Barack Obama. We think he is somewhat aware of the problems within the state and can help change them for the better. I have a link that you and others might find interesting.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/10/obama-dispatches-aides-to_n_142854.html
You would probably be shocked by the negative campaigns ran against that candidate.
People who want change are afraid to do anything about it. They live mostly from paycheck to paycheck. The people they would have to stand up against are the very people who sign their paychecks. Their employers would fire them and they would not be able to provide food and shelter for their families. Many lost their jobs here when gas prices soared because they were having to commute to larger towns. Some of them driving as much as 100 miles per day. Most employers here use govt. loopholes to keep from having to pay unemployment. For those who can get unemployment...it only pays a percentage of what you were making while working and you can only get it for a certain number of weeks.
As for those last relief checks the govt. sent out.....My daughter who co-supports one child and raises her second child as a single mom living on her own...her check was for $127.00. Hubby and I have no small kids and didn't qualify...so we got NOTHING!!

Sam

11-25-2008, 06:18 AM

:eek: OH :rolleyes: I forgot....hubby doesn't share my open-minded adventurous spirit. I hate it here and I love Valdosta but he doesn't.
He has two older sisters. One who lives in Macon and will lend moral support but when it comes to anything else...she'll tell him to take a flying leap. His oldest sister will argue with him like their is no tomorrow but he knows when push comes to shove she'll come through for him no matter what. She's been his security blanket since their mother died. He would never move away from her. Or away from our two kids. And to be brutally honest...my happiness or what is best for me ....means nothing if it means a change for him or an inconvience for him. He puts his head in the sand and tries to convince himself that I am Superwoman. I am invincible. I am never going to wither and die as long as he pushes me to push myself and keep going. It's how he and the kids deal with things. Not unlike everyone else in this area. If something frightens you pretend it doesn't exist. I have always been the stronger one in the family. The driving force so to speak. But now that the wheels are falling off..they are just trying to cope and having people around who make them feel safe helps them. ;):( So I tolerate it for their sake.

Coolwater

11-27-2008, 02:52 AM

This thread started off being about the election, and I'm going to veer back there for a second. You recall that Palin was selected to attract women voters. Well, this is part of a note from a good female friend who is a prof at Wellesley, a women's college, who didn't like any of the candidates:

Me: For a while there, you were threatening to
not vote for anyone at all; what changed your mind?

My friend's reply:
1. Sarah Palin

2. Obama ran the better campaign. McCain engendered serious worries about
his ability to lead by his erratic performance. I liked O's calm.

3. Sarah Palin

4. The republicans needed to hear the message that they screwed up
big-time.

5. Did I mention Sarah Palin?

Well, if the idea was to get women out there voting, it succeeded!

Littledevil

12-01-2008, 04:20 PM

I said in the beginning that if Hillary didn't win the nomination I would vote republican or not at all. I didn't trust Obama at first. Too Good to be true usually is just that. The more I listened to the man, the more I began to hope he could change things. When Palin was picked, I thought ok maybe, but I also knew it was because she was a woman. Once I heard her speak and listened too her, I thought oh crap this is the best they could do. Ultimately voting for Obama.

Sam

12-02-2008, 08:24 AM

When it all began I thought that same thing about Obama. I didn't think he'd have the experience necessary. The more I watched and listened...I thought...well he's got great ideas but I didn't see the experience necessary to carry them out. So I kept watching him and the people he was surrounding himself with. I listened to his speeches to different groups and his plans and I thought...you know he really has carefully thought things through and I liked his stands on most things...but still I thought...he'd never get elected. I knew there would be the usual onslaught of Republican voters and the racists views and I figured a lot of Clinton supporters would go against him. With Clinton you knew what to expect so I was still prepared to go with Clinton. But when she lost....I thought....this guy is definitely in tune with what I want in a President (I had assessed that earlier) but he is also what many other people want in one too....so he just might have a chance. Maybe the others who voted for him saw what I saw in him. An intelligent person with a definative plan capable of uniting this country and putting it in the right direction.

:) So do ya think it was a smart move for Obama to choose Hillary Clinton as Secretary Of State?? I DO!!