New Forum Area Now Open - Punching Bag

[Victoria]

Hi Everyone,

This section is to enable off-topic views on what might be considered by some to be more contentious items relating to politics, religion etc.

All we ask is that you keep discussion polite and 'peaceful'.

Enjoy the new area, but remember we are all friends here :) So lets respect each other for our differing points of view on subjects and enjoy the chance to chat about them.

[Scarpetta]

Now that is a title.

I have posted so rarely here, but I do stop by from time to time, and I 'thought I posted' on this thread but ...didn't, so in reading again what had been posted on the 'other thread' I will try again, if I can remember what that was!

I will agree that Religion and Politics can be contentious but I would have to disagree that because of that, we should remain silent.

There were some pointed, and in my opinion outrageous statements made in this thread regarding Presidential Candidate Obama and I too could have remained silent but I remember a comment made by Theodore Roosevelt (I wasn't there mind you....I read it much later!)that read:

"In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."

That worst thing you can do is nothing, has prompted me to post this.

The scurrilous notion that Senator Obama is 'a terrorist', 'a radical' and 'a Moslem' is so wrong on so many levels, it is hard to begin. The first two are just unabashed smears and the third, even though he is Christian should not make any difference in American Society at all. Our fundamental values defined by the Constitution explicitly allow for choices of Religion to be that of the citizen, and government remains separate and apart.

I believe it is wrong to bear false witness and spoken from a Christian point of view I can't understand how one can say some of the things said on the previous thread, and call THEMSELVES Christian.

Barack Obama was raised by a single mother and his grandparents. They didn't have much money, but they taught him values from the Kansas heartland where they grew up. He took out loans to put himself through school. After college, he worked for Christian churches in Chicago, helping communities devastated when steel plants closed. Obama turned down lucrative job offers after law school to return to Chicago, leading a successful voter registration drive. He joined a small law firm, taught constitutional law and, guided by his Christian faith, stayed active in his community. Obama and his wife Michelle are proud parents of two daughters, Sasha and Malia.

[Coolwater]

You make my heart happy, Scarpetta. I was feeling kind of outnumbered.

I am on what is called the Traveling Board. We go in teams of one Republican and one Democrat to homes, and care residences where there are people who wish to vote, but who have limited mobility. We bring their ballots to them, and if they need help reading, we can read the ballots to them, and mark the ballots if they have trouble writing. We can set aside ballots of the people whom we find are truly incompetent to decide - we had one today who was afraid that the ballot was really a form for involuntary committal, and we were trying to trick her. :eek: We are not allowed to help people make their choices, obviously, and cannot campaign for the candidates.

Here is a sad thing for you. Today a life-long Democrat, a very old woman who has nearly always voted "straight ticket" (she votes entirely democratic), voted for McCain today. It was difficult for her because she dislikes McCain, and she likes the Democratic platform, but Obama's NAME frightens her. She simply cannot envision President Barack HUSSEIN Obama. She felt very conflicted about it.

[Scarpetta]

FEAR and a NAME. How sad.

FEAR AND BIGOTRY
Obama routinely denies the false notion that he is Muslim and stresses his commitment to Christianity and his regular church attendance. The website Obama has set up to rebuff a wide range of rumours notes the fact that he was sworn into the Senate on his family bible. That he finds it necessary to spell this out speaks volumes about a climate of fear and bigotry.

And about Obama’s caution: the first Muslim to win a seat in the 435-member House of Representatives, Keith Ellison, caused a storm of cyberspace criticism when he carried a Koran to his 2007 swearing-in ceremony. The hubbub subsided when it emerged that the Koran he used was once owned by an American with impeccable credentials - Thomas Jefferson.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2008/10/23/in-us-elections-fear-of-muslims/

Bernd Debusmann is a Reuters columnist. The opinions expressed are his own

Emails for this election were sent out in Pennsylvania to the Jewish Community claiming "Many of our ancestors ignored the warning signs in the 1930s and 1940s and made a tragic mistake. Let's not make a similar one this year!"

It was refuted and to the credit of the Republican party, they fired the fellow.

The bigoted and false assertions harm us as citizens, and harm our nation.

We should refute them at every opportunity.

[Coolwater]

"The hubbub subsided when it emerged that the Koran he used was once owned by an American with impeccable credentials - Thomas Jefferson." :D heh!

[Littledevil]

My mother is a democrate and is voting for McCain. She deosn't like either candidate but doesn't trust Obama and that is why she is voting for McCain. That is not her only reason, but a big one. I am an Independent but lean towards Democrats more often. I for one don't trust any politician, but belive this country needs a change. John Kennedy was smart, young and brought new ideas to American Presidency. He unfortunately was assinated. People are scared of what they do not understand and hence shoot first and ask questions later. This is not always the best course of action.

It is Sad that positions are taken soley on information that may or may not be factual or religious based. People are scared of Muslims because of the Radicals that planned and executed the 9/11 Attacks.

I have said history is our biggest educator. Centuries ago, Paganism was the Religion of Choice. People believed in a higher power, but worshiped Nature as well. They gave the Sun, Moon, Earth names and believed that they had power. Not fully understanding why it rained, why the sun would disappear in the middle of the day (referring to a Solar Eclipse), the cause and effect of the world around them. Christianity became popular after the death of Christ and really came into Fluition some 300 years later when Constantine set forth the Gospels that would be included as the Bible of Christianity also discerning Christs Divinity. Constantine was in fact a Pagan and was baptized on his Death Bed. He saw the rise of Christianity and knew that the two religions Paganism and Christianity would tear both worlds apart. My point being Pagans were hated because the world no longer understood it, since Christinity was the overall Faith. Another Example, people who practices wicca as it is now called or worshipped nature, had ideas, or were just accused of being heretics were executed, All of which at the base of it was because of Fear. Fear is a constant and has never changed. It is only when we let go of our Fear that Change can occur.

Someone's name shouldn't be the reason for a decision either!
The name Barack is a form of the Arabic word Baraka or Barakah, meaning blessing (from the root "Brk"), specifically, the "meaning of Barakah in an Islamic sense" refers to "the presence of divine blessing in an object and increasing those blessing." ""Husayn diminutive form of Hasan, which is derived from hasan (beautiful, handsome, good). Husayn, one of the most popular Muslim names. That does not mean that he is Muslim or of how he will run this country. Besides that, this country was founded on many factors including Freedom Of Religion! Which I feel since this candicy started has been forgotten!

But hey we are talking about the presidency not religion or at least not yet.:D

[Littledevil]

I am sure everyone is as sick of all the Political TV ADS, The Emails, Mailers, and Cell Phone Calls telling us why and who we should vote for. Most of which are negative ads. So thank God the election is almost over. A few more days and get ready for the next chapter in American History!

[jeanne]

Pray for our country. Out of 300 million people we have only these two Obama and McCain to choose from. I will probably write in a candidate. Obama banned medical care for Infants born alive from an abortion. I do not understand how anyone could deny a baby medical care. What else is he capable of that we do not know. If you think I am slandering him just google Obama and abortion. It is interesting neither candidate has discussed it during the campaign.

[Scarpetta]

Obama has spoken at length about his vote as an Illinois state senator against the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which he says has been widely distorted. The bill would have required doctors to perform life-saving treatment to fetuses born as a result of an induced abortion, but Obama says those babies were already protected under Illinois law. "There was already a law in place in Illinois that said that you always have to supply life-saving treatment to any infant under any circumstances," Obama told Relevant, a Christian magazine, earlier this summer. "This bill actually was designed to overturn Roe v. Wade, so I didn't think it was going to pass constitutional muster."Newsweek wrote

What is important is:

"But we also know that Roe v. Wade is about more than a woman's right to choose; it's about equality. It's about whether our daughters are going to have the same opportunities as our sons. And so to truly honor that decision, we need to update the social contract so that women can free themselves, and their children, from violent relationships; so that a mom can stay home with a sick child without getting a pink slip; so that she can go to work knowing that there's affordable, quality childcare for her children; and so that the American dream is within reach for every family in this country. This anniversary reminds us that it's not enough to protect the gains of the past – we have to build a future that's filled with hope and possibility for all Americans."


"When South Dakota passed a law banning all abortions in a direct effort to have Roe overruled, I was the only candidate for President to raise money to help the citizens of South Dakota repeal that law. When anti-choice protesters blocked the opening of an Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic in a community where affordable health care is in short supply, I was the only candidate for President who spoke out against it. And I will continue to defend this right by passing the Freedom of Choice Act as president.

Government should not choose. Overturning Roe v Wade would not END abortion. Only safe ones arrived at by a woman and her Dr. Education and options are what is required for women in these circumstances. Not the political wedge that is the 'abortion issue'.

VP candidate Palin has stated that incest and rape would not be a reason for an abortion. McCain said during a debate that 'health' of the mother should not be an issue either. Both are unabashedly wrong.

[Littledevil]

You are correct Scarpetta. Palin has outright said that she would like to have Roe V Way overturned. Look at her own family. She has a teen age daughter who got pregnant. Palin said that she was proud of her daughters choice, which implies that she has a choice, however, Palin doesn't think abortion should be allowed at all. That states women shouln't have that choice.

Abortions have been going on for hundreds of years people just have a more effective way of doing it now. Government should not have the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body. State law shouldn't either. I am all for women who choose to carry a child to term and raise that child and feel the same way for a woman who chooses to abort. One thing this issue raises is a real possibility that Roe V. Way could be overturned. Supreme Court Judges that retire and then replaced with judges who are pro-life is a very real possibilty. However, this would not stop abortions. They would still occur and the practice of back alley abortions would come about again. This would effectively put mothers and their unborn child at serious health risk. An abortion procedure not done correctly and unsterilized could result in death from infection.

As for whether Abortion is morally right or wrong, in my opinion, it is not as simple as black or white. It is a sticky GREY Area. It comes down to circumstances. Ex: I married, so if I became pregnant with my husband I would keep the child. If I was raped and became pregnant as a result of that rape, I would abort. I would not be able to live with that, let alone give a child up for adoption. There are so many children in foster care that fall between the cracks, don't get into good homes, basically left out in the cold. I am not saying adoption is bad by any means. But my point is the rape, pregnancy and then abort is my choice and something I would have to live with. No One Else is affected by it, except for someone who thinks I am murdering a fetus. Another example. What is the choice for a minor out there who is raped becomes pregnant and has religious parents who don't belive in abortion. Not only does the child suffer in the long run, but so does the mother.

How many kids out there who become pregnant stay in school to finish high school, let alone go to college to further their education? You have to take into acount how hard it is being a parent, providing for the child in everyway, working to support that child, and then add High School or even college on top of that. Realistically, there isn't enough government funding to help young kids who get into this predicament, and the funding that is available is abused.

My view is like this:
1: Women should have the right to choose regardless of age or circumstances.
2: Minors must notify parents, but do not require their permission.
3: Abortion can only be done up to a designated week of pregnancy, unless of extreme health reasons, ie mother and/or fetus potentially could die if carried to term.

Some may disagree with my opinion and that is ok, but I feel that no one has the right to tell me or any woman what she can do with her body. If you don't want to have an abortion and don't like it, don't do it. But don't tell me or my daughter she can't have one.

[pepeperfume]

Obama has spoken at length about his vote as an Illinois state senator against the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, which he says has been widely distorted. The bill would have required doctors to perform life-saving treatment to fetuses born as a result of an induced abortion, but Obama says those babies were already protected under Illinois law. "There was already a law in place in Illinois that said that you always have to supply life-saving treatment to any infant under any circumstances," Obama told Relevant, a Christian magazine, earlier this summer. "This bill actually was designed to overturn Roe v. Wade, so I didn't think it was going to pass

I find this very confusing…..

“The bill required life-saving treatment to fetuses born as a result of an induced abortion” ……The whole issue on whether abortion is murder is grounded on the distinction between a fetus (an unsanctioned being—(without life???) without feeling, and a baby—or infant,, yet in your own statement you named them one and the same …..”but Obama says those babies were already protected under Illinois Law,”

How can that be if the law only requires lifesaving treatment to infants—and the aborted—er—thing--- is only a fetus?????

What is important is:

Government should not choose. Overturning Roe v Wade would not END abortion. Only safe ones arrived at by a woman and her Dr. Education and options are what is required for women in these circumstances. Not the political wedge that is the 'abortion issue'.

VP candidate Palin has stated that incest and rape would not be a reason for an abortion. McCain said during a debate that 'health' of the mother should not be an issue either. Both are unabashedly wrong.

Since abortion is legal and an accepted form of counterceptive in this country I have to agree only to the extent that it should not be a political wedge in the upcoming election. However, since the people who vote are going to vote upon their "feelings" there will be people who find the abortion issue important. There will be people who don't believe Palin and McCain are "unabashedly wrong"!!!

People vote on feelings--because they are people. And feelings are never wrong--they just are!!!! They also vote on beliefs--if they be religious or policitical or a mixture of both....and that is why no candidate for President of the United States can ever feel 100% sure of a victory until the votes are in.

[Coolwater]

I do understand that people who wish to outlaw abortion feel that way because they believe that a conceptus (the ball of dividing cells) and then later the fetus (the cells become more specialized and form organs) are sacred human beings. I also understand that this election may be important in that regard because the next president has a good possibility that he has to select a new supreme court justice, and the choice will be made for a liberal or conservative judge, as it has been before. Roe V. Wade could possibly be overturned.

Consider, however, that the anti-abortion faction does not represent Americans. 82% of American women believe that women should have the right to choose to abort. Overturning Roe v. Wade would probably not end legal abortions because American women (and most of the men) would insist that the religious beliefs of a minority not be imposed upon them, and states would then pass laws permitting abortion.

If we really want to end abortion, there is a better way. The Scandinavian countries have a very low abortion rate and so could we if we emulated them. What I'm about to tell you is entirely data-based.

First, we have to have factual sex ed classes starting at a young age (i.e., kindergarten, with simple info, and teaching "stranger danger"), including good information on birth control when the kids hit puberty. The Guttmacher Institute data on kids and sex ed right here in the US has found over and over again that children and youth who get thorough sex education are far more likely to wait to have sex than are kids in religion-based, fear-based or abstinence-oriented programs. Educated kids that do have sex are more likely to use a good form of birth control. Parents who indicate to their children that they approve of the sex education are more likely to have children who talk with them about what they are doing.

Second, we have to put support programs in place to care for those girls who do get pregnant. Forcing the kids to marry produces divorce and dead beat dads. Giving the girls prenatal and child-birth care, a program that provides adequate income for living expenses, people to help her with her child rearing skills if her parents can't or won't, day care while the girl goes to school and helps her through college, results in a girl who has no reason to abort, and who can ultimately support her child and herself.

It has been demonstrated that this system truly reduces the abortion rate by reducing the teen sex rate, preventing pregnancy, and by allowing girls to keep their babies and support them. It is expensive. If we believe that abortion is wrong, we have to be willing to put our money where our mouths are.

Who's with me?

[Scarpetta]

I find this very confusing…..

However, since the people who vote are going to vote upon their "feelings" there will be people who find the abortion issue important. There will be people who don't believe Palin and McCain are "unabashedly wrong"!!!

People vote on feelings--because they are people. And feelings are never wrong--they just are!!!! They also vote on beliefs--if they be religious or policitical or a mixture of both....and that is why no candidate for President of the United States can ever feel 100% sure of a victory until the votes are in.

You are correct there will be those who believe that the health of the mother is not a reason for an abortion. There are those who also believe that rape and incest and a resulting pregnancy is also not a reason. There are also those who believe that 'contraception' is wrong. The American Life League has stated that. It's no secret to those who follow Washington politics that birth control has been "next on the list" of anti-abortion, religious conservatives.

If you are a citizen, or if you are not. You should be concerned.

Coolwater has spoken knowledgably of education to lessen the numbers of abortions, and to the majority who believe it should be 'Safe, Legal and Rare'.

[pepeperfume]

I do not want to see Roe vs Wade overturned. I think it should stand. I think women should have the right to chose whether they bring life into this world and I believe that choice should be made between themselves and their doctors-and the procedure should be billed out in the same way any other operation is...but I think if we are going to judge who lives and who dies we need to face a little truth here-and that truth is that being pregnant means that a life is forming inside you. It is alive-it grows, it feels... and if you leave it alone you will find yourself with a baby.

The only difference between whether it is a baby or a fetus appears to be in the mind of the mother who carries it--and since that IS the case--the need for Roe vs Wade is always going to be needed. I think I stated twice now that I believe government should not have a say pass the current law on the books. And just as was pointed out in a prior post--their are people who are so against abortion that it causes them to want to enforce their beliefs on others--and the frantics will carry it as far as outlawing counterceptives, which would be a true travesty.

I agree with Coolwater that more education is needed. Both my children grew up in California, with the health and sex education classes they have there, along with such things however is the simple fact that a parent getting involved with their children can often help reenforce the education they get in schools. Without the solidarity of a parent, who is the child to fall back on? How much easier is it to follow the in crowd, rather than looking deeper inside to see if it is really what they want--and if they are ready!!!

My favorite Presidential campaign TV ad is one by Baraka Obama where he says what he wants to do for education--but more importantly points out the need of parents to play there role!

[Littledevil]

Your are absolutley right. Education is key, but so is the parents involement with their children regarding sex. Additionally, getting rid of contraceptives would not decrease kids having sex or abortions, we all know that. That would be a mistake on Washington's part. As if that is their only mistake:(. I don't think Palin was a smart pick for McCain and I don' think she would be good for the country either.

[pepeperfume]

As if that is their only mistake:(. I don't think Palin was a smart pick for McCain and I don' think she would be good for the country either.


In total agreement there!!! All Palin did was make McCain look even more unstable than he already appeared.

[Scarpetta]

Just be sure and vote and be prepared to stand in line, but don't be deterred. There have been students told they cannot vote where they go to college. Wrong. Supreme Court says college students vote where they go to school. They caught two people distributing fliers that Republicans vote today, Democrats tomarrow. It is a misdemeanor to do that but they won't be charged. Many more distractions and attempts to get people NOT to vote. Ignore them. Vote and do so early. Today show showed Sen Obama voting in Chicago. Paper ballot and scanner, and it took almost 16 minutes. Millions will be out today. Be sure you are one of them, or if not, you voted early.

[JustBecause]

I voted!

My daughter went with me and is very proud of her 'Voter's assistant' sticker. It's basically just the 'I Voted' sticker, but one of the polling place staff called it a voter's assistant sticker, so that's what stuck.

I'm glad she was there even though I had to shush the loud "Mommy why did you vote for that proposition?" question. :)

[Coolwater]

(lying on the floor gazing glazed-eyed at the ceiling) I was the "Lead Democrat" at one of the Indiana polls today, which means that my Republican opposite number and I were responsible for making sure that everything was fair, bipartisan, and that the votes got safely to the counting house. Our folks and machines collected 1600 votes today, and I can't tell you how many new voters we congratulated, how many questions we answered, how many little problems we solved, and how many "assistant voters" we praised and stickered. We started at 5:00 and finished up about 8:00. The wait was short, people were good natured, and we all laughed a lot. And we still have no idea how the state voted, because it is too close to call.

Boy, am I tired. It was worth it, though.

[JustBecause]

Thanks for providing such a great view from the other side of the table, Cw.

No matter the outcome, those who participated as you did made it far easier for the rest of us. :)

[pukkie]

Congratulations with your New President members out the USA
I hope you became a good and better future in the nex four years !

[Scarpetta]

Your participation Coolwater in this All American Process is to be commended. Thank you. The volunteer participation in this election is unprecedented. Time to put to rest the apathetic voter. Americans pull through, and sometimes pull it out! Not that the road ahead will be easy but I like who I see at the helm of Americas representative government. Others will see steady as you go governing with Obama and less partisan ideology. A consistant, measured, confident , intelligent leader is now our 44th President elect.

[Littledevil]

Well we have our new president! America is headed in a new direction and with the leader America has chosen hopefully we will see brighter days in our future. At least for the next 4 years.

Coolwater good for you all that you did this election year.

I voted and only had to wait 15minutes. Lucky me. I had to bring my 15month old son along. My son of course didn't want to wait in line and wanted to run right in and around the whole presinct. Luckily I had a leash for him that went around his waist to keep him close. That worked up until I was halfway done voting, but a nice volunteer offered to hold him so I could finish voting. He got a helper sticker too.

[Coolwater]

Ah, no, I'm not all that virtuous. Poll workers do get paid a bit, and this check is going into pay for some Christmas gifts. And being part of the process is tremendously rewarding!

I do some volunteer work for the Red Cross: will that get me my sainthood back? ;):D

Good gosh, it was exciting watching the returns last night!!!

[Coolwater]

If anyone has questions about how the voting process works, send me a PM. I can only tell you about Indiana, but I expect that we're fairly representative.

[Vernon Gaunt]

I just love the sound principals of the US.

Much as I commend the US democratic voting system personally I would jump up and down and cheer for one thing and one thing only.
Never mind whether the man/woman is black, white, yellow, pink or blue for that matter aren't you missing the point?

I've never seen a true Native American in the White House!

[Vernon Gaunt]

Retracted, I've had enough politics for 4 years

[Coolwater]

Depends. Are your three sheets layered all together or are they luffing on different masts?

I think a Native American president would be just fine. And I appreciate the irony, VG. ;)

[hcla]

Way to go, and well said Vernon G., but I do believe the native Americans are getting even...CASINOS....and in this part of the country they are buying back THEIR lands left and right...POLITICS....I'm gonna shut up now :) My great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee Indian :cool::D

[Coolwater]

Heavens to Betsy, hcla, have your registered for tribal membership? You'd get a share in the income, and maybe scholarship money for your children.

[Vernon Gaunt]

Way to go, and well said Vernon G., but I do believe the native Americans are getting even...CASINOS....and in this part of the country they are buying back THEIR lands left and right...POLITICS....I'm gonna shut up now :) My great grandmother was full blooded Cherokee Indian :cool::D

HCLA then if I could you get my vote. But tell me one thing please. Why should your people have to buy back their lands?

I've just finished watching a series on the BBC about the Amazon and its inhabitants. Once again the oil and mineral companies have trashed great areas leaving the indiginous population to almost starve, they live on what the forests provide. Lands are left only for cattle and the rivers polluted.

The lungs of the World ie the Amazon Rain Forest, are getting cancer.

[Coolwater]

HCLA then if I could you get my vote. But tell me one thing please. Why should your people have to buy back their lands?

Because the English and their descendants went around the world claiming the property of others and this is the world we inherited from them. :p

[hcla]

We and all native Americans, should'nt have to...its a big game, but the peoples found loop hole in laws and so Casinos spring up everywhere, and the lands are being taken care of...returned and goverened by the various tribes...heres a bit of trivia...about 15 years ago I participated in the "gathering of the nation " here in Coburg, its basically a HUGE POW-WOW, where all the tribes gather...did you know there is a very old law on the books to this day that prohibits the gathering of the tribes...the law has never been changed or removed and so this POW-WOW was put together under different definition as Elders of the tribes said it could be stopped, and or red tape could prevent it. Yes, I'm on the ROLE, so to speak and I can use benifits if I so desire, Cherokees are not in this part of the states, but many other tribes are. The Nez Peres are gaining ground in the Portland area so I'm told, and they were nearly exstict as I understand
'

[Scarpetta]

hcla spoke of the Nez Perce. At one time, there were more than fifty bands of Nez Perce utilizing an estimated 17 million acres of land in northeastern Oregon, southeastern Washington, and north central Idaho.

One of the most famous chiefs, Chief Joseph (Hin-ma-toe-yah-laht-khit) was the leader of the Nez Perce during the middle and late 1800’s when trouble with the white immigrants started.

Chief Joseph always believed that the Indian and the white man could live in harmony together in the same land, but with each push by the U.S. Army to wipe the Indian tribes off of the land, it became more and more evident to him that living together peacefully with the white people would be impossible. In 1877, the Nez Perce war broke out and the tribes fought, with no avail, to maintain their land. They were eventually forced to flee and were pursued by the Army for 1,800 miles. When they reached Montana, Chief Joseph decided that he and his people had had enough. He called all of the other Nez Perce chiefs together and surrendered. At this time he delivered one of the most famous quotes of North American history, "Hear me my chiefs. I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever."

This quote lives on in every Nez Perce Indian today. They are a peaceful people who strive to maintain their culture and the ancient ways of their ancestors. Even though they do not own the land they once called home, to them it is still theirs to worship and it is land for everyone to admire. This is the philosophy of the Nez Perce Indians. http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/northamerica/nez_perce.html

The Nez Perce are a vital force in the economy of Idaho, Washington and Oregon in logging, fishing, commerce and education.

It is an interesting note, for those who wish to explore it that the military tactics used by Chief Joseph against the US Army is still studied and admired in US military schools. Actually that probably can be said of numerous Chiefs of the Great Tribes.

[Vernon Gaunt]

Because the English and their descendants went around the world claiming the property of others and this is the world we inherited from them. :p

Ok but then we gave it back, India, Canada, Australia (gave that back to the convicts) New Zealand etc etc etc. Those who didn't want to be given back weren't. OK there were a couple of ups and downs here and there but they got it back--------eventually.

As for the Native Indian stuff I just love it. Sort of reminds me of Independence for Scotland. Substitute tribes for Clans and you're about there.

There are even pockets of the UK that seek independence. Wales for one, Cornwall, Scotland of course.

Trouble is I don't know where I fit in! My lot are all farming stock whilst Stephy (damned Welsh LOL) iron workers and miners.

I did note Kenya has ordered two days of celebrations for Mr Obhama. Looks like you've got coffee and friendship there for at least 4 years.

It was right to hand Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) back but look at the damned mess they're making of it.

And the UK wasn't the only ones to play their part. France, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Spain, Portugal. Mind I suppose you have to mention the Italians LOL. I suppose Rome had a say in the European way of things. But one thing I didn't know was Sicily was Greek until 2000 years ago. There's one in the eye for the Mafia.

You know I did mention the fact that most of us are immigrants on another board. The conversation sort of slid to a standstill.


More Native American stuff please. Have you any pictures?

[Coolwater]

Gave it back? India and parts of Africa maybe. VG, who is running Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the US? White folks, mostly. Leaving is not the same as giving it back. I'm not defending history, but a Brit shaking his finger at Americans over colonialism is an astonishing thing. My distant Mohawk ancestress is laughing!

Now, if hcla wants to hassle, that's fair.

I just finished reading a book about Lewis and Clark's travels from one coast to the other. The Nez Perce were apparently a large, peaceful community before the Anglos got there, with a good reputation among other Indians for honesty, hospitality, and the quality of their horses.

[Scarpetta]

Nez Perce were a peaceful tribe and had a good relationship with Lewis and Clark. Clark frequently treated the Indians’ illnesses and diseases and became, as Lewis wrote, their “favorite phisician.”

What came after however.....

The Treaty of 1855 ordered the Nez Perce to relinquish their ancestral territory and move to Oregon's Umatilla Reservation with the Walla Walla, Cayuse, and Umatilla Tribes. However, all the tribes so opposed this plan that Territorial Governor Isaac Stevens granted the Nez Perce the right to remain in their own territory, on the condition that they relinquish nearly 13 million acres to the U.S. government.

After gold and other metals were discovered in Nez Perce country, the U.S. government negotiated a new treaty with the tribe in the 1870s. Often called the "steal treaty," it stripped the Nez Perce of the Wallowa and Imnaha Valleys and the land at the confluence of the Snake and Clearwater Rivers--the site of the present-day towns of Lewiston and Clarkston.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~idreserv/nphist.html

[Coolwater]

Yes. Greed is an awful thing.

[Sam]

On election day my family and I sat dressed waiting for the polls to open.
(wanted to avoid the long lines) Then we made the long treck across our front yard next door to the polling precinct where we cast our votes. Then we went back home where I was sent back to bed. I tried throughout the day to follow the elections as they came in but to no avail. But...at just around midnight the sound of hubby yelling; "HE DID IT!! THANK GOD HE DID IT!!"; told me all I needed to know.
We finally have someone who does not have their head stuck so far up their butt that they can actually see what is going on in this country and the world around them. Someone who is willing to look at the problems, listen to all sides, and then seek a solution that benefits everyone not just a choice few.
Someone who does not stand there on the brink of the collapse of our economy and tell us that our economy is strong.
BTW I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican. But if future candidates want to get elected in this country...they will have to learn to listen and impose the will of the people in this country and NOT hide in an ivory tower from which they come out just long enough to try to pee in our ears and tell us it's raining!

VG I can't speak for the other decendants of the American Indian but....
from what little was passed to me through mine...most were not wild savages eager to kill the "white man". It was the greed of the "white man" which forced them to stand up and fight for what was rightfully theirs. But the fight was lost and they were forced to adapt to the new ways set forth by the "white man".
Any way...my family doesn't utilize the provisions made available for the tribes that are left. We leave that for those who wish to carry on the old ways. We don't forget the past because it is a part of who we are but we feel we must learn to live in the present and make our own way on the same playing field as everyone else if we are to truly live in peace.
IMHO every person of every culture has had a rough start finding their place in the world. If we are constantly seeking retribution or revenge then the bitterness of the past remains and often putrifies and people can not come together as one and live in peace. But if we accept that the past is the past and look forward to the future then we can have a chance at achieving peace and happiness for ourselves and our countries.
OK climbing off my soap box and back under my blankie.;)

[brilliant!MacLeod]

Coco,
so glad to have you back!!!!!:)
You are so right. Revenge and hate are never good advisors. That´s at least what we should have learned from Duncan MacLeod.;)

[Coolwater]

Well said, Coco. It's a fine balance to fit in without losing one's past. Ideally, one would retain something of the cultures that contributed to one's ancestry, so that it isn't all lost. My Dutch ancestors turned their backs on their Iroquois grandmother and her kin, but they did pass along the woodscraftmanship from parent to child. Ironically, that was my grandfather's gift to me, as well as the information that we did indeed have "Indians in the woodpile," as he put it, rather than the Scots family lore. Had to get that from another twig on the branch.

[JustBecause]

Hi Coco,

Welcome back, good to 'hear your voice'. Be well!! :)

[Littledevil]

Welcome back Coco and well said. I am glad to have a president that I think will do some good in this country.

Greed, Hatred, & Fear unfortunatly govern many of the choices people make. Letting go of all of that, but remembering the past, so not to repeat the poor choices made, and to look to the future and keep moving forward will make life sweeter. We can't change what our ancestors did, but we can change what was.

Back then England's policy was to make the world England. So any culture that differed from their own refinement and values was savagery. IE, Scottish Clans, Native Indians, and all the way to India.

By the way, has anyone noticed that about every 20years there is a major war, validated or not? Peace only lasts for so long, before someone decides to pick a fight!

[Coolwater]

Really? Every twenty years? Heck, peace never seems even to last that long! ;)

[Littledevil]

Your right, 20 years was only an estimate. I looked up all the lastest wars and here are the results. Yrs are listed from the start of each war. The Average is 14.2yrs. I grouped the gulf and persion war together. I didn't count the two years of peace.

2003- ? Iraq War (13 yrs)
1990-1991 Gulf War-Also known as the 2nd gulf war (10yrs) /peace 12yrs
1980-1988- Iraq-Iran War (Persion Gulf War) (19yrs) /Peace 2yrs
1961-1973 - Vietnam Action (11yrs) /Peace 7yrs
1950-1953- Korea Action (11yrs) /Peace 8yrs
1939-1945 - World War II (25yrs) /Peace 5 Yrs
1914-1918 - World War I (15yrs) /Peace 21yrs
1899-1901 -Philippine Insurrection (1yr) /Peace 13yrs
1898-1899 - Spanish-American War (37yrs)
1861-1865 - Civil War - Peace 33yrs

The link below lists additional wars
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ar/county/greene/warsandda.htm

[Coolwater]

There are times I'm not at all happy to be right. :(