A strange thing!

[Coolwater]

The papers published a map today of cancer rates in the US. I noticed that it mirrors cardiovascular disease rates, but my clever husband pointed out that it also mirrors the red and blue states from the election! :eek: People who voted for McCain have higher rates of cancer and heart disease than people who voted for Obama! What the heck! Republicans tend to be more affluent than Democrats, so it can't be access to health care. Liberals (of both parties) tend to be better educated than conservatives, so it might be about knowing about healthy living habits - but still!:confused:

[Amarnagrape]

That's really odd! Hopefully it's only a coincidence, albeit an unfortunate one...:(

[Barney]

Republicans do tend to be older these days, which might explain the higher rates. The young are going for the Democratic party. But don't start me on the two party system in this country that's a whole other issue.

[Coolwater]

Republicans do tend to be older these days, which might explain the higher rates. The young are going for the Democratic party. But don't start me on the two party system in this country that's a whole other issue.

(slaps forehead!) Of course! Age! Amarnagrape, I agree: the idea of a systematic difference like that is unfortunate, but Barney has a good point that may explain the whole thing.

Aw, go on, Barney. tell us about the two-party system. You know you want to! :D

Seriously, I've always wondered about places like Italy and elsewhere where they have more than two, and how they ever manage to get anything done.

[brilliant!MacLeod]

Cool,
in Italy they do never get anything done!!!!!!:D
But I guess that ´s not because of the many parties but of the corruption that seems to be so normal there(at least when you consider their current president).
We have many political parties in Germany ,too and I guess we get at least a few things done.;)

[Coolwater]

Do the politicians run around and form coalitions to get a majority vote for a bill? That's what ours do, and it is complicated enough with just two parties. I can't imagine the promises and deals that get made with more than one party to consider.

Now, Brilliant, are the Italians really more corrupt than other politicians? Do you know the riddle we have in the US?

How do you know when a politician is lying?

His lips are moving.

[Barney]

No, Coolwater I really don't but I will say this, did you know that George Washington, our most revered first President was against the party system. He felt that Congress would get all tied up in dissention and it would provide a breeding crowd for corruption. He believed they would get too powerful and control what happens in the nation. Which is of course, is exactly what happened. No one can get elected in this country unless they can get either the Republicans or Democrats behind them. I believe that there is a really great Presidet out there somewhere, much like Lincoln, who would lead our country the way it should be but couldn't get elected because he doesn't have the backing of either party. I greatly admire Lincoln as a man and a statesman but poor Abe wouldn't be able to get elected today. I don't believe he would play the game. Sad.

I do think we need to get rid of the electoral college. It's seen its time. Maybe I should draft a bill and see if I could get it passed. It would be interesting to do. The electoral college had its place but I think the reasons for its inception are no longer valid. We need to go to a popular vote system and truly have "every vote count" which in our current system don't. We could conceivably vote for a president and he could lose because those in the electoral college want the other guy. How does that reflect the "every vote counts" in this country if the will of the majority is overturned? Would you support a bill to over turn the electoral college?

[Coolwater]

Well, then, Barney, tell us how we can help. This will help us get started and keep us cheerful during the looooooong process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyGQxMWPiIs

For those who don't know, Gore won the popular vote in 2000, and Bush won the electoral vote. Given his brother Governor Jeb Bush's almost certain manipulation of the Florida ballots, I suspect that the popular vote would have been more definitively in favor of Gore, and the electoral vote might have gone the other way entirely.

Just as an aside, a friend voted in Nebraska for the first time, and reported this on life under a unicameral legislature:

Since moving to Lincoln in late June, I've learned a great amount regarding Nebraskan state government... Nebraska is the only state in the United States with a unicameral legislature. Although this House is known simply as the "Legislature," its members still call themselves senators. Nebraska 's Legislature is also the only state legislature that is nonpartisan (the senators are elected with no party affiliation next to their names on the ballot).

While the lack of identified political affiliation may sound enlightened, it is in practice confusing. More to the point: it forces voters to educate themselves regarding the policies and platforms of state-office candidates, rather than making assumptions based on party affiliation alone. Since I typically opt for the lazy and uninformed route of straight-ticket voting, Nebraska 's voting system was vexing on Election Day. As a result, some of my voting decisions were purely arbitrary--such as when I voted "Kathy Campbell" for the State Legislature merely because her name bore a strong similarity to the name of my dear friend, K. C.--even though K. is an unapologetic liberal and Kathy (as I later learned) is a true Nebraskan conservative.

[Coolwater]

Oh oh. Barney, is getting rid of the electoral college going to require a constitutional amendment rather than a mere law change?

[Sam]

Barney I agree with you and would totally support that.
I think at some point both the democrats and republicans will have to concede to middle ground standing. I think the American people are finally standing up to them and telling them that this is what we want. If they want to get elected they will have to let go of those "far left" or "far right" ideas.
There is a middle ground and it will enable us to go forward as a unified country.
I think Obama represents that in many ways. I think the fact that he listened to the people and found that middle ground has been a major key to the success of his election. And if he is able to maintain that throughout his term as President he could very likely become one of the finest Presidents we have ever had.
Coolwater I think it's sad that someone chooses a candidate because they had a friend with the same first name as a candidate or that they simply vote based on a particular party. I know most people do. But that kind of blind voting isn't good for anyone. We have the ability to vote for our leaders...the least we could do is educate ourselves about who it is we are voting for to represent us. Don't you agree?
I was having dinner with some members of my family a few days ago. They began whining that they voted in the presidential election but their vote didn't count. I couldn't resist flashing them a smile and saying: "Well MINE DID!!:D I guess my position as black sheep of the family remains intact.;)

OH YEAH...about that state color map...coming from one of those red states..
It has to do with age and everything you have all listed. And having other things located in those states too.

[Scarpetta]

No, Coolwater I really don't but I will say this, did you know that George Washington, our most revered first President was against the party system. He felt that Congress would get all tied up in dissention and it would provide a breeding crowd for corruption. He believed they would get too powerful and control what happens in the nation. Which is of course, is exactly what happened. No one can get elected in this country unless they can get either the Republicans or Democrats behind them. I believe that there is a really great Presidet out there somewhere, much like Lincoln, who would lead our country the way it should be but couldn't get elected because he doesn't have the backing of either party. I greatly admire Lincoln as a man and a statesman but poor Abe wouldn't be able to get elected today. I don't believe he would play the game. Sad.

I do think we need to get rid of the electoral college. It's seen its time. Maybe I should draft a bill and see if I could get it passed. It would be interesting to do. The electoral college had its place but I think the reasons for its inception are no longer valid. We need to go to a popular vote system and truly have "every vote count" which in our current system don't. We could conceivably vote for a president and he could lose because those in the electoral college want the other guy. How does that reflect the "every vote counts" in this country if the will of the majority is overturned? Would you support a bill to over turn the electoral college?

You have some points Barney but the most important reason for the electoral college is still very much with us: "The passions of the masses!"

“Human beings will always go for myth because it’s compelling, dramatic, and, if it were true, it would be able to change history,” says Perry Leavell, a presidential historian and folklore expert at Drew University in Madison, N.J. “You can go back into the history of the American presidency and find over and over again people … who are prepared to believe the exact opposite of what all the data would say.”

If you look carefully at the most recent Presidential election and the allegations proffered by Obama's opponent. 'Terrorist ties, not natural born (later still being pursued to the Supreme Court ), the passions of the masses can be compelled to believe untruths as some no doubt have or McCain wouldn't have had as many votes as he eventually got.

That factor and under the most common method for amending the Constitution, an amendment must be proposed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress and ratified by three-fourths of the States.

Many have tried and failed. The bar to change is rather high. Another Founders point of wisdom.

Another question would be what exactly Barney is 'the way'? I believe that there is a really great Preside[n]t out there somewhere, much like Lincoln, who would lead our country the way it should be ...

Excess of 300 Million people and 'the way' would be how?

[Coolwater]

Yeah, Black Sheep, I mean Coco, if my friend weren't the most socially and politically active person I know, I'd scold him. (He's a social worker and lobbyist whose job for the past dozen years has been making sure that low income people can hang onto their homes, and that poor people have housing - long before it became a fashionable political issue.) Having moved recently from Indiana, where it is pretty safe to vote a straight ticket and get the representation you're striving for, it would be very difficult to sift out the unlabeled candidates after living in a place for only a short time. He'll get to know who the politicians are very soon, I know.

Hey, did you know that the MMPI, a famous instrument for sorting out various kinds of crazy, has items on it that catch people who are fibbing to make a good impression? The items for that are mostly about things that average people don't do even though they think they should. People faking good will agree to the items, "Yes, I do that", not realizing that most folks don't generally do them! There is one item along the lines of, "I vote in every election, and I study each candidate and issue carefully before going to the polls." (There are some saints in the world who do all that, but they aren't usually mentally off enough to be taking the MMPI.) Point is, people don't generally vote in a truly informed way much of the time, partly because there are sooo many candidates and sooo many issues. We'd be better off skipping the candidates we don't know, perhaps. :confused:

I cheat, myself, by asking friends who have convictions like mine, but who are politically more knowledgeable than I am. :D If one of them were to lie to me, I'd be in trouble!

That way would be that path chosen by the masses, Scarpetta. The current electoral college doesn't defend us against "the passions of the masses" becazuse (becazuse? I'm typing in Czech today!) of the way the EC delegations are handed out. Right now delegations are loyalty prizes to dolts who will vote with the party that picked them, rather than merit awards to people who will make a sound choice. Would it be possible to reform the EC by reforming the way delegates are selected and how they are allowed to cast their votes?

Or, how about dumping the EC, and adding a requirement for truth in political advertising, one with such heavy and pragmatic penalties that it has teeth in it? Like, if you slander a candidate, even unknowingly, you forfeit your right to run? Also, if we get rid of the EC, we'll also have to find a way to compensate for the disparities in populations density, or a handful of states will decide an election in the way that best benefits those states.

I'm in favor of fixing all this: I hate the EC, I hate the defamation of character and the lying. (desperately) Somebody please come up with some solutions here!

[Scarpetta]

In this last election Coolwater 'the way' was both an electoral vote victory for Obama and a popular vote victory. It worked that way for Buxh in 2004 (I think I will keep the 'x' typo...more fitting ;) I can't wait to say 'ex POTUS!) as he won both, popular and electoral. Not so in 2000 where Gore won the popular vote but not the electoral vote. Some states have (few) have gone to proportional representation. I think it would defeat entirely the reason for the Electoral College.

As for actual vote casting, none have changed their vote to date that reversed the election outcome according to State designated Electoral Votes. Unless they reside in States that mandate their vote, they could and it would be Constitutionally legal.

As for this election, this is when those Electors meet.

December 15, 2008 - Meeting of Electors: The electors in each State meet to select the President and Vice President of the United States. The electors record their votes on six "Certificates of Vote," which are paired with the six remaining original "Certificates of Ascertainment." The electors sign, seal and certify the packages of electoral votes and immediately send them to the President of the Senate, the Archivist of the United States and other designated Federal and State officials.

December 24, 2008 - Deadline for Receipt of Electoral Votes: The President of the Senate, the Archivist of the United States, and other designated Federal and State officials must have the electoral votes in hand.

January 8, 2009 - Counting Electoral Votes in Congress: Public Law 110-430 changed the date of the electoral vote in Congress in 2009 from January 6 to January 8. This date change is effective only for the 2008 presidential election.
The Congress meets in joint session to count the electoral votes (unless Congress passes a law to change the date).

The 12th Amendment, the expansion of voting rights, and the use of the popular vote in the States as the vehicle for selecting electors has substantially changed the process from the original Constitutional design. Not 'nuf Coolwater? As you stated:

Or, how about dumping the EC, and adding a requirement for truth in political advertising, one with such heavy and pragmatic penalties that it has teeth in it? Like, if you slander a candidate, even unknowingly, you forfeit your right to run? Also, if we get rid of the EC, we'll also have to find a way to compensate for the disparities in populations density, or a handful of states will decide an election in the way that best benefits those states.

I'm in favor of fixing all this: I hate the EC, I hate the defamation of character and the lying. (desperately) Somebody please come up with some solutions here!

The truth in political advertising I agree whole heartedly with. Unequivocally! Then we are faced with state disparities, population density........Perhaps that is why it has been tried over and over again, only to fail.

I still hold to this belief, before we start 'tinkering'.

“You can go back into the history of the American presidency and find over and over again people … who are prepared to believe the exact opposite of what all the data would say.”

How many believe Obama was born in Kenya?

[Barney]

By "the way" I mean peacefully, truthfully, and for the betterment of the country and not for individuals with powerful lobbyists. Unrealistic, sure but it would be nice if we could move in that direction.

I want a candidate to stand before me and tell me what he or she will do for the country, what their policies will be and then have the next candidate do the same without namecalling or running down the other candidates. All I want to hear is what they are going to do. Then let me decide who I want to vote for. There was way too much negative ads knocking the other guy and not enough info about their own policies. Obama was good about not saying anything until he was forced to (and yes I voted for him even though I don't agree with all of his policies).

Here in Oregon I was watching the local news interviewing people waiting in line to vote when the national news cut in and said that they were declaring Obama the winner. How does that reflect that every vote counts when these people had not even had the opportunity to vote before the winner was announced? And what is wrong with the "passions of the masses" at least then we would have a president that had the backing of the majority.

Just because something has been done for over 200 years doesn't mean that it can't become antiquated and needing tickering with. The reason some people believe Obama was born in Kenya or is a Muslim is because some one put that info out to disparage him as a candidate. Like I said they should only be allowed to talk about themselves. Also, the process goes on way too long. It needs to be shortened and I don't want to hear any results until the next day. Is that too much to ask?

[Sam]

Baaahhh...OOPS I meant...WELL SAID BARNEY!!
Votes were still be counted every where when they declared a winner.
I'm glad Obama won but...
I too want just the issues put before me without all the bs so that I can make an informed decision. Truthfully I think all the bs is why so many don't exercise the right to vote in this country. That and the fact that no matter who we vote for in our presidential election it is still decided by the EC.
I think we have too many govt. officials anyway. We could cut the budget by firing a bunch of them and let them work for the same low wages they expect us to.:p
If a candidate has done something that might make them unworthy of the post they seek then and only then should it be put out there. But have the proof necessary to back up the claim.
As for laws and amendments and the like...we have so many that no one actually knows what they are. We'd be better served by finding out what we already have on the books. Then get rid of those that no longer work for us and enforce those we have that do work. Then and only then should we make new ones. And while we are creating our ideal govt.....Let's only have bills passed without all the pork. No more tacking on stuff to a bill to get it passed. It either is good enough to pass or it isn't.

[Scarpetta]

By 'the way' you meant MORE than just the Electoral College, you meant 'Election Law'. Now that will require effort of massivie proportions as well.

Check out the index at the Department of State:

http://www.fpc.state.gov/c9809.htm

Oh passion is a good thing but 'passion of the masses' if ill conceived and nurtured as some election propoganda was could lead to much worse government, even that of the last eight years!

This is a hurdle that cannot quite be 'jumped' and until something of much greater insight is devised we are left with the system we have: I repeat myself but “You can go back into the history of the American presidency and find over and over again people … who are prepared to believe the exact opposite of what all the data would say.”

Now democracy is not a very efficient form of government, and the 'Electoral College' as part of a massive 50 State Election Law process, is not perfect, but both are better than many other countries.

Now you may want to 'tinker' with Election Law but I'm glad the founders made changing the Constitution much harder. An amendment must be proposed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress and ratified by three-fourths of the States.

I'm only one voice with one opinion and for those that don't agree, then do as Franklin D. Roosevelt said:

"Go out and make me do it."

[Littledevil]

I agree with all of you. Until a better system is created then we are stuck with what we have available. No Democrocy isn't perfect and is definitly better than some other countries. We try to do what is best and I believe many politicians start out trying to make a difference and something happens. You also have to look at the bigger picture. While many do things to line their pockets, at the same time they are trying to do things that they think will pay off in the long run for the country, not just the hear and now. For Instance, look back in our history with slavery. From the time slavery began to when it ended until now. Look how long that road was. We as a country have come a very long way some things good and things bad. Ultimatly it comes down to one thing. "Small steps to make Big Changes". I don't know if anyone has said these exact words before me, but I have always said this. Or in other words Baby Steps, First we crawl, then stand, walk, & run.

Whether we agree with or not. The Wars that have been fought over the years needed to happen, including this one. Each and every conflict has tought us something about us as humans. We can do many great things and the most evil of ones. But they still affect and change how we live and what we do to keep moving forward and take us in the direction we hope to go that will lead us to the best place we can be. Sometimes even going off on a road less traveled or one we know we shouldn't go.

Even if Obama was born in Kenya, it doesn't make him Kenyan. My cousin was born in Germany; however, he is American not German. Both his parents are American but lived in Germany for that time their son was born and weren't citizens of Germany. The slanding does get old, but it is up to us to educate ourselves between the truth and lies. Sticking to the truth would help but I don't think that will ever happen.

[Scarpetta]

No Littledevil, ALL Wars do not need to have been fought, especially this current Iraq one that has already been declared 'Victorious' by the President aboard a Naval Aircraft carrier years ago! Now we are an occupying power! As for what we have learned? Administrations do not always tell the truth!

Kenya and Obama? His natural father was from there. President-elect Obama is not. He is an American born in Hawaii to a mother from Kansas! If it was as you say he would not be the next President. See how easy it is to mislead and how that erroneous statement was intended to rob Obama of the Presidency? Only natural born citizens Littledevil, not 'nauralized' by virtue of application and oath can run for the office of President.

In other words, if he was so inclined Adrian Paul might be a good candidate but unfortunately he is not eligible! I think I heard a collective 'oh darn'! ;)

I missed a comment but just saw it made by cocoknight, that the 'add ons' to some bills called 'earmarks' should be eliminated. Some yes, and the process by which they get there should be revised, but they account for about 1%of the National budget and many worthwhile community works projects wouldn't get accomplished without them.

[Littledevil]

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't implying that he was not a natural citizen or that he was born in Kenya. I know where he was born. My point was how easy things can be misrepresented. I know that he must be a natural born citizen or you would be correct he could not be president. My example is the same aswell. My cousin is not a naturalized citizen either. Both his parents were born in America and American, but my cousin was born in Germany when my uncle was stationed over their while in the Military. They did not live on base. So that was my point. Give out a little info and the information can be mislead and misread.
Kenya and Obama? His natural father was from there. President-elect Obama is not. He is an American born in Hawaii to a mother from Kansas! If it was as you say he would not be the next President. See how easy it is to mislead and how that erroneous statement was intended to rob Obama of the Presidency? Only natural born citizens Littledevil, not 'nauralized' by virtue of application and oath can run for the office of President.

Just with what I was stating about the Wars. I wasn't referring to just the Iraq War. We can agree to disagree there. I also am aware that the Iraq War has been Considered Victorious and we an occupying power. We should be redirecting our Military long before now. Again my point is it is almost impossible for the human race to live completely with out conflict and be at Peace. There will always be Wars to be fought. No matter the countries involved or the reasons for it. I am talking about the larger picture of the world and our history and future of people as a race. In that sense wars are a necessary evil. To teach us, change us, move us in new directions. I am not just talking about American Wars. Every conflict affects us all, even in the smallest amount. What I am also saying as in my example. Black Slavery came about and for a time was considered very popular, but over time it grew out of favor. Efforts were made to take the country out of slavery completely, but it took over a century to accomplish this. Hariet Tubman, The Underground Raiload, etc. But if not for the small steps it took to take us to that end point. Slavery might still be around and things could be very different. Just as with the Hitler and what he did. It took not only the efforts of other countries, but of people that were close to Hitler to eventually bring him down from power. Hussain was a dictator and a tyrant. He murdered his own people and some of his family. Did he deserve or need to be taken down from power? I believe Yes he did! If someone in this country was as Hitler, Hussain, Stalin, Nepoleon, the list goes on, I would expect other countries to step in, if we were unable. I am not saying that the American people would stand for a person such as that or that it would happen or that America couldn't handle it on our own.

Underestimating our Enemies is a damagable mistake. Perfect Example 9/11. A Tragedy that did not need to happen, yet it did happen and on some level needed to happen. It brought the American people together to take a stand and not be blinded by our invincibility. We had the inteligence regarding 9/11, we knew Bin Ladden was a threat and knew he was planning something, even knew exactly where he was and could have taken him out a long time ago. 9/11 could have been prevented, but believing he was not that big of a threat and could be handled was a mistake. Just as with Pearl Harbor, the 9/11 attacks have only awoken a sleeping giant. We need to get back to that fight and let Iraq alone with their freedom.

A nice addition to the forum would be spell check.:p

[Coolwater]

"By "the way" I mean peacefully, truthfully, and for the betterment.." Ohhhh! I see, Barney; you mean we need a Tao of Politics! That Way. ;)

Scarpetta, you and I part company primarily on one point: whether the EC serves its original functions. You seem to feel that the EC prevents ill-informed, uneducated, gullible people from voting for president based on their passion for the lie of the moment. I'm arguing that the current EC is composed of the very ill-informed, uneducated, gullible people you object to, and that they are as susceptible to "passions" as the rest of America, and even more so because they are so loyal to their parties. They are chosen for their loyalty to the party that has appointed them.

This is an empirical question, and the demographics should be researched to see if what I'm saying is true. I base my opinion on interviews with electors who talked about how they were chosen for their service to their parties, and who seemed unbelievably simple.

AP for President. Hm... OK, he can't run, but it might be fun to see his platform. It would be thoughtful, at any rate. Yeah, I guess I'd vote for AP to represent me in some capacity.

Whom are we comparing him against? Fred Thompson? :rolleyes: The Governator has been doing a tolerable job (he can't run for pres, either), but we've already had one actor in the White House, and it was not a great success. Reagan was a puppet, a mouthpiece: he took direction, learned his lines and delivered them well. At least with a bad actor like the Shrub, we had a rough idea of who was actually running the White House. With Reagan, one was never sure. Not sure I want another actor in the White House!

[Sam]

Scarpetta even though the govt. claims it is only about 1% that doesn't mean it's the absolute truth in my eyes. TPTB often lie whenever it suits their purpose. But reguardless of whether or not they are being truthful in their analysis......1% is still a huge amount of money. Just one example: Alaska's plan for the "Bridge To Nowhere". Even though they didn't get it in the end.
I still stand by my statement.
LD you are correct. It doesn't matter where a person is born. If at least one parent is a natural born American citizen then their child is also a natural born citizen. Although AP isn't a natural born citizen...if he has a child here in the US that child will be and would be eligible. I have to admit it would be very interesting to have AP in some capacity of the govt. :D Maybe Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense.:p
I'm still with Coolwater about the EC. We don't need someone else making that decision for us.
LD yes on those baby steps. "One small step for man. One giant leap for mankind." But more people need to make their voices and opinions heard first in order for any steps to be taken.
OK LD we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to war. Yes there have been some that were unavoidable but not all were necessary. Yes Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator and had the US removed him from power in the first war with Iraq it would have made sense. But that wasn't the reason our troops were originally sent there for this time. Remember those weapons of mass destruction?
Yes there will always be conflict and war because there will always be someone out there who wants what they either don't have or wants more of it and will do whatever it takes to get it. But we must let the citizens of countries decide their own rule and work these things out for themselves whenever possible and be there to help them when it's not. One of our problems with other countries is that they view us as a bully. In many ways they feel we are imposing our will and religious beliefs on those who do not wish it. I think the worst thing about wars of the past is that in some instances we haven't learned from them. We seem to keep making the same mistakes. Leaders are very much like hard headed people like myself...in that if someone tells me not to do something or that I can not do it...then I will do my darndest just to prove I can and I will. Many of them share that mindset.
If we learn to discuss and compromise better then we might see a lot less war and a lot more peace.;)

[Littledevil]

Very ture Coco!. The intelligence provided to the Bush Administration was that Hussain had weapons of mass destruction and was going to use them. This info then spread like a virus through a computer on the news. Giving motive and reason to go back to Iraq and finish the job daddy bush started. Later it came out that there wasn't weapons of mass destruction, thus pissing off the American people for being lied too and pissing off other nations in the process. It was an excuse. A distraction from where we should have been and to continue to go after Bin Laden and Al Quaida.

America is a big bully in many respects. We bullied our way into this country. American Indians are the only true Natives.

When their is a conflict or tragedy everyone expects the US to step in and do something or pay an annormous amount of $$ to aid them. If we don't help, then we are looked at as turning our backs on the world. The French hated us until Hitler's army showed up. We are hated until something happens and then are expected to come and help. Sometimes I feel America should say screw off to the rest of the world and close our borders, but that isn't the right thing to do. We have a responsibilty and to set a good example. Something we haven't been doing.

War is suppossed to settle conflict, but one problem with the war at hand is you can't negotioate with Terroists. Their view of a victory is when America is destroyed and we are dead. There is no diplomacy in that. Even if we left them alone, they hate what we stand for. I am only referring to Terrorists Not Muslims! They use the Koran and mis-intepret it to suit their efforts. Humans are a very diverse population and the Utopia of Peace and Zero conflict I'm afraid will never exist. The majority of us want peace, but there are the blood thirty people out there that want to dominate the world and make it to fit their ideals. So I ask you, what do you do? Do you stand there and let it happen and do nothing or do you fight? I am all for peace, I will fight to defend my family and way of life.

The Holucost shouldn't have happened, the Iraq War shouldn't have happened, Peal Harbor shouldn't have happened, there are many events that shouldn't have happened, 9/11 shouldn't have happened, but they all did. Each time an event such as these has happened on some level it was needed to teach us. Do we always get the message or learn from our mistakes? No we haven't. Did Jesus need to be crucified and die they way he did? All he was trying to do was to spread his message and a peaceful way to live. The answer is Yes. He had to give himself and sacrifice his life for the rest of us. Die for our sins. Look how far people have come from then. Look at all we haven't learned as well. There are many more lessons we need to experience before Peace will ever truely be realized. There are still battles or Wars that will be fought. Think about the events that are taking place currently and where these events are going to lead us. We are at a cross road right now. When Obama takes office and choices his administration make will effect our direction of left or right. And how do we know which way is the right one. We don't. We are putting our faith in a man who could take us either direction and hoping it will be the right one.

Ok, I'll step down from the soap box. Next:)

[Scarpetta]

Here is a website that you can look at your states earmarks. All of um. Just click on your state.

http://www.legistorm.com/earmarks/state.html

As for the comment regarding "Alaska's Bridge to Nowhere", the money did not go to the bridge BUT it was retained in the State, as the earmark was amended.

Congress passed the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act of 2007, which required disclosure of all earmarks therefore you will find them on the database.

Perhaps in this economic crises we find ourselves, there will be more openness regarding them, but the needs that States have probably will only increase, so don't really look for them to go away.

"In a nation where elected officials have to make decisions about redistributing tax money among 50 states, there will always be winners and losers. The winners talk about worthwhile projects, the losers about wasteful "pork barrel spending."

Cocoknight made this comment: It doesn't matter where a person is born. If at least one parent is a natural born American citizen then their child is also a natural born citizen. That is most generally true but there are some notable exceptions that can get a bit complicated! You might find it interesting to explore it.

Coolwater commented:I'm arguing that the current EC is composed of the very ill-informed, uneducated, gullible people you object to, and that they are as susceptible to "passions" as the rest of America, and even more so because they are so loyal to their parties. They are chosen for their loyalty to the party that has appointed them. Isn't that the point? Cast your vote according to the election in the State you represent? States vary on laws . Are they appointed or elected? Are they really ill-informed, uneducated, gullible?

As for voters the cultural issues seemed to dominate in many states, and that was more important than what we as a Nation face economically , in foreign policy (the cultural, religious influence is there)

I agree that Election reform across the board is needed. If we get to that point then perhaps we are mature enough for change in the EC. I'm not too sure..... Agree to disagree?

[Coolwater]

The sad thing about the Bridge to Nowhere, is that had anyone bothered to look beyond the posturing, they'd have found that it was actually going to be a good thing, if perhaps overpriced. The Bridge to Nowhere was supposed to be a bridge that would allow a small city (I've forgotten its name) to have an airport so that it could expand. The small city on one side of the proposed bridge is hemmed in by its geography, and it needs an airport badly. The land on the other side of the bridge is flat, suitable for an airport. Why Alaska simply didn't fund the bridge is a good question, but that Palin vetoed it without explaining the function to the rest of the world suggests that either she just didn't know the reason for the appropriation (i.e, was badly uninformed), or she intended to use the veto -while keeping the money in state- for her own political glorification as a maverick (i.e., she's evil). One of the embarrassed, frustrated residents of the town published an essay in Newsweek explaining what the bridge was to have been for.

Well, appointed is as good a word as any, Scarpetta, given how little influence citizens have in the choosing of the electors. Technically, of course, you're right: it isn't the most precise word because the states acquire their electors in various ways. The chief way, however, is that that the job of elector is handed out as a reward for party service and loyalty. As I'm sure you know, some states have nominations and voting for electors within the parties. Some states require their electors to match the popular vote in that state, but most do not. Some states are right up front about it: on the ballot the name of the electors are placed next to the candidates so that the voters are reminded that their vote is for an elector rather than for a candidate. And so on.

The excessive reliance on people who serve one party or the other is the chief weakness of the plan. By and large we can expect that the electors will support their party in spite of the incompetence or self-interest of their candidate or his platform. Third party candidates haven't got a prayer.

Of course, we agree to disagree (still friends! :) ), but rather than simply enduring the status quo, I would like to be part of a movement to revise the elections laws, at a national level if we can, and at the state level if we must. If that doesn't give the people better control of voting, then a Constitutional amendment will be necessary. The slowness of the changes to the election laws should give us plenty of time to come up with solid data to show whether the amendment is needed, and to devise ways of amending the Constitution for the better.

I don't think the Constitution should ever be amended lightly, and a 2/3rds states majority ensures that frivolities like "No Flag Burning" will get turfed. The Constitution has been amended many times, however, and usually for the better. Prohibition stands out as one that wasn't so great! But more than half the people in the US have the right to vote at all due to an amendment. It's a man-made document, and imperfect, after all.

[Scarpetta]

There was a conference held in Oct on the subject. Haven't heard if there were recommendations or what to reform.

I had an email on it that stated thus:

Conference goal: Since its creation in 1787, the Electoral College has remained the most mysterious mechanism for electing a President of a country. There is no consensus among mathematicians, systems scientists, and political scientists studying the Electoral College on whether it can satisfactorily serve the U.S. in the 21st century, especially after two close elections in 2000 and in 2004. Discussions of the Electoral College in the media mostly focus on opinions about this unique election mechanism and are not based either on its established quantitative features or on its true merits and obvious deficiencies, leaving them unknown or unclear to an overwhelming majority of the electorate.

Depends on who acquires more funding and how 'reform' is presented to influence public attitude.

I never thought California would ever pass Prop 8 either, but they did with massive funding.

'The Bridge'. Ketchikan and Gravina Island where less than 50 people live. I believe the $26 M road TO the non existent bridge did go forward. There is a nice turn around there!:D

[Coolwater]

There was a conference held in Oct on the subject. Haven't heard if there were recommendations or what to reform.
Oh, I bet that was interesting. Wonder if we can get a hold of the proceedings and write for reprint requests from some of the authors?

Depends on who acquires more funding and how 'reform' is presented to influence public attitude.
What does?


I never thought California would ever pass Prop 8 either, but they did with massive funding.
Yeah, that was a very unpleasant shock.

'The Bridge'. Ketchikan and Gravina Island where less than 50 people live. I believe the $26 M road TO the non existent bridge did go forward. There is a nice turn around there!:D
Scarpetta! :D

I missed that part about only 50 people! :eek: Are there businesses and people who want to live there and can't??

[Scarpetta]

The bridge just keeps getting more interesting.

The $26 million contract to construct the road, which is a little over three miles long, was signed by former Gov. Frank Murkowski just days before he left office in 2006. And Murkowski's wife owns 33 acres on Gravina Island, close to where the bridge would have been built.

And Murkowski's daughter is Senator Murkowski and she has issued Palin a warning to not look at taking her seat!

Alaska politics just gets curiouser and curiouser! :)

[Coolwater]

Sounds like South Georgia, huh, Coco?

[Sam]

;) NOW you are getting the picture! Nepotism and favoritism for the wealthy to get what they want alive and well! And be da#*ed the rest of the population's needs. What ever govt. funds come here..the general public never sees those benefits. I'd be curious to know how many "Republican states" are ran the same way. I'm so not happy right now. Sonny Purdue got re-elected as Governor. That means another four years of crap!
I wish we only had elections every four years for everything. You know only one day every four years where you go to vote on all candidates and issues. We have so many (even though most of the general public don't know about them) that it is rediculous. We've had four here since June and somehowmy driveway becomes public domain.
Any who...I'm pretty tired so I'll come back later and discuss the finer points with you all.

[Coolwater]

Another country heard from: Apparently a group of Thais want an electoral college. You've probably read that the main airport in Thailand was being occupied by peaceful protesters, a group called the PAD. Their chief complaint is that the current government is a puppet government for the one that was ousted for corruption. A secondary complaint is that the bad government was elected by illiterate, uninformed peasants, and they want an Electoral College to take the place of the "one-person, one-vote." system that has replaced their monarchy. Here's a report:
The anti-government alliance claims Thailand's rural majority — who gave landslide election victories to the Thaksin camp — is too poorly educated to responsibly choose their representatives and says they are susceptible to vote buying.

It wants the country to abandon the system of one-person, one-vote, and instead have a mixed system in which most representatives are chosen by profession and social group.

Chaturon Chaisaeng, a former Thaksin Cabinet member, suggested there could be civil war if the protest alliance presses for a non-elected government.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gXtkIJGFlHXR5qT3LIG2olEVZyFQD94R3EM00

I think it is interesting that they have not tied their proposed electors to the political parties as we have. I don't think that it would be long, however, before the guild and union representatives realized their edge as political weapons, much as our union leaders do now.

BTW, the protesters cleaned up the airport when they got ready to leave! My kind of protesters!

[Sam]

Coolwater..maybe they would benefit from having an EC but I doubt it.
Those same corrupt govt. officials can just as easily find ways to control the EC. My personal opinion is that they need a movement to better educate their general population on governmental operation so they can invade and overturn.
But I really have NO knowledge of this countries govt. or people so I am basing my assessment strictly on your post. So I'm probably wrong on it.
But you know that shows how different media coverage is even here in the US. Being so far out in the sticks...we don't get cable and satellite tv is rediculously over-priced (boy will my phone be ringing off the hook today with telemarketers for that..:mad:) ..but any way...We watch the local channels which cover the main networks.
The coverage we were shown was of protesters and law enforcement in a violent altercation and our stations reported travelers from outside that country were being held hostage.
I wish the press would just stick to reporting the facts instead of always trying to sensationalize them.:mad:
You know I was telling you all how bad things are here?
Well I heard a report today that states that 75% of Georgians are without health care and that at least 650,000 people in this state are currently unemployed. And those are just the ones the govt. has records on. And STILL they re-elected that same govt.:rolleyes:
I see a better future for our country but I don't see any hope of this state coming out of the dark ages.

[Sam]

You know..we were discussing somewhere earlier about that map of the states and the colors representing Dems. and Repubs....
I would really love to see an overlay of that map showing where each state is in terms of health care, unemployment, etc....just to see how the Republican States stack up against the Democratic States.
I have a feeling if one existed and was made public....the next state elections would change even more.

[Scarpetta]

The unemployment part has a 'population component' to it. BLS report for Oct. (latest I've seen)

Some of the states with the highest jobless rates are also states that have large populations (MI at 9.3%, CA at 8.2%, OH at 7.3% and, IL at 7.3%). Moreover, the two states with the highest rates are Michigan and R.I. with 9.3% rates, 3.6% above the median, while the two states with the lowest rates are SD and WY with 3.3%, or only 2.4% below the median

Now for the health component. That too probably having more to do with employment and the population component, those losing jobs and also health insurance. Those States where the majority of the 47M reside that don't have ANY health insurance and less access to Health Care? I believe Georgia is one, as you cocoknight can attest to.

What I have read on the subject has to do with children:

Michael Petit, author of a new book “Homeland Insecurity … American Children at Risk,” lays out an interesting set of data comparing kid’s health in each state to how the state voted in the 2004 election.

To determine the kid part, he used 11 statistics measuring health, including insurance coverage and prenatal care.
The top ten: Wisconsin, New Jersey, Washington, Minnesota, Nebraska, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Iowa, and New Hampshire. Only Iowa voted Republican.

The bottom ten: Wyoming, Georgia, Arkansas, Alabama, South Carolina, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Louisiana and Mississippi. All Republican.

In fact 24 of the bottom 25 are red states.
That’s ummm, significant.

Timothy Jost, professor of health care law at the Washington and Lee University School of Law says:
“States that tend to be politically and economically conservative have less inclusive medical assistance programs. So, it would make a great deal of sense that states that are Republican have conservative social and economic policies that lead to a decreased health status for poor children.”

There is probably a correlation to adults in these stats too, which I don't have information on at the moment!

[Littledevil]

Funny thing... I just saw on CNN that there is a push to take the case of Obama eligible to take office to the supreme court. We were just talking about this. I think it is ridiculous that they are trying to say that Obama can't take office. All because his father was from Kenya. I don't think the supreme court will take the case though. Don't think they agree that it is a valid case, plus no one really wants to go against what the majority vote for Obama either. If Hilary had won, guaranteed they would be digging something up about her. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!! :mad:

[Coolwater]

It won't hold water, but it better not delay his taking office!

[Littledevil]

Don't think it will. His birth certificate closes the case on the matter, but they still tried. rotten b@st@rds.

[Sam]

;) Thanks for those stats Scarpetta. I thought there would be a very close correlation between them.
Even though stats may support population as a factor...I personally discount it. Because when you break it down to the number of people per square mile...I'd say there probably isn't a enough to make much of a difference.
Unemployment is a direct factor though....
I think this is due to the fact that not only do republicans hoard the money they acquire but they also try to keep new business out of the area because it would cut in on their profits.
I guess what I am saying is they get a foot-hold making money and try to stamp out the competion. Leaving only themselves to profit.
This state has plenty of wealthy business owners. But they open several small businesses so they keep the number of employees low in each business they own. That exempts them from having to provide healthcare benefits under federal guidelines. Many of them cheat on their record keeping so they can claim the business is operating at a loss. Therefore allowing them to use the very business they are making their fortune from as a tax shelter.
I know a woman in this town who has a net worth of twenty million dollars. She and everyone she knows operate this way. She runs a restaurant which has water leaking through when it rains onto the tables where she serves people food. The floors have uncovered bricks in them with huge chunks missing which is definitely against health codes. There are so many violations I can't mention them all here.Yet she rarely repairs the place and the health dept. lets her go with repeated warnings but never has closed her down. Her waitresses get paid $2.18 cent per hour (their tips are estimated as $8.00 an hour whether they make it or not. They are only allowed 30 minutes of time for cleanup after closing but the workload usually takes anywhere from an hour to two hours because they have to wait for last minute customers to leave). Her cooks get paid minimum wage. NO ONE has benefits!! She reports a staff of 15 to the govt. Her profits after expenses every month average $40,000 or more. I have seen her dump huge amounts of food in trash cans while her employees and their families go hungry. I asked her how could she sleep at night doing that and knowing that. She replied.."I sleep just fine! I pay them a wage. I pay for the food I dump and if they don't like it too bad."
She knows they will stay because it would be the same at all the other jobs around.
She's a republican. And she is the NORM for this state. It's how they all do business.:rolleyes:

[Scarpetta]

A slum lord State. Who woulda thought. I sympathize cocoknight but it is only the voting citizens that can change it. Too bad the business you mentioned is patronized. Where I live, code violation means a lock on the door, closure until fixed and substantial fine.

[Barney]

Ok, this is my final comment on the Electoral College. I promise.

Article 2 of the Constitution was successfully changed by the 12th Amendment in 1804, so it is possible, easy no, possible yes. The Gore/Bush election was just the latest anamoly of the Electoral College when Gore won the popular vote and Bush the electoral vote and we all know how that turned out!

The main argument for the Electoral College was the ignorance of the population but that does not hold water today. People are more educated and informed than in the 18th century. As for the concerns of the states, I think we need to think of ourselves more as citizens of the United States when it comes to voting for the President of the United States. Personally I still stand by my believe that it needs to be eliminated. Nixon and Carter both supported proposals to eliminate the Electoral College. They proposed that the populace elect the president, with a run-off between the top 2 candidates if none received more than 40% of the vote.

We need to let our representatives know how we feel and if the majority say no to the Electoral College than Congress needs to act on the will of the people that they are supposed to be representing. And if they don't, we vote for candidates that will.

I love this country that I was born in, even with all its faults, and I don't see my wanting to change our voting system as a revolutionary tactic. I see it as a positive progression. It's time to stop worrying about State rights and start worrying about everyone's rights. Segregating ourselves whether it be by state or by countries is what keeps us from being a united people of the world. We need to stop thinking in terms of "us" and "them".

Wishful thinking? I don't think so but even if it is only a dream, what a wonderful dream it is. It's dreams for a better world that keeps us going day to day. The possibility is there. As for global warming, I agree it is a natural occuring phenomenon but I believe that man thrown into the mix has hastened the effect and we should be doing something to counteract our effect.

I appreciate all of your comments and am pleased that most of you agree with me on the Electoral College. It gives me hope for the future.
I'll get off my soapbox now and wish peace and joy to you all.

[Coolwater]

Geez, Barn, tell us what you really think! ;):D

Carter is against the EC? That's reassuring; he is a very intelligent guy.

Your argument is more or less the inverse of mine. Yours is that people aren't as uneducated as they used to be, so the EC isn't needed. Mine is that the electors have become less educated than they were once upon a time, and are therefore no more fit to make an executive decision than any other citizen. They are not the Philosopher Kings the founding fathers wanted for the job.

[Sam]

:( Scarpetta the patrons there are so bright. When it rains the water literally flows into the place and floods it. Sometimes to knee-deep levels. So instead of leaving and going some place else...they roll up their pants legs, kick off their shoes and go in to be served. And she expects the employees to work with water flowing around the electrical outlets. Still the health dept nor the fire dept will close her down.
But you are right. If the people in this state are willing to keep voting into office the type of people that are allowing this...then they get what they deserve. Sad part is that those who don't deserve it are still in the minority.

Barney I couldn't have said it better myself.
But I think both you and Coolwater are right. The American people are not as uneducated as we once were and those who make up the Electoral College aren't educated enough to represent us fairly.

[Scarpetta]

:( Scarpetta the patrons there are so bright. When it rains the water literally flows into the place and floods it. Sometimes to knee-deep levels. So instead of leaving and going some place else...they roll up their pants legs, kick off their shoes and go in to be served. And she expects the employees to work with water flowing around the electrical outlets. Still the health dept nor the fire dept will close her down.
But you are right. If the people in this state are willing to keep voting into office the type of people that are allowing this...then they get what they deserve. Sad part is that those who don't deserve it are still in the minority.

Barney I couldn't have said it better myself.
But I think both you and Coolwater are right. The American people are not as uneducated as we once were and those who make up the Electoral College aren't educated enough to represent us fairly.

OSHA still oversees safety violations and that appears to be 'one'.

Some States have set up more strict regulations therefore...


Section 18 of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (the Act) encourages States to develop and operate their own job safety and health programs. OSHA approves and monitors State plans.

Georgia is not one of those states.

Someone should be contacting the Feds.

When it comes to food handling and suspected bacteria contamination, what circumstance leads to cross contamination but standing water?

I understand reluctance to step forward but those circumstances are beyond the pale cocoknight.

www.restaurant.org. has a lot people can do too.

As for your last paragraph on the EC. I agreed to the disagree but with stories such as this one component of the argument 'uneducated', and only one, seems to have been met !

[Coolwater]

Someone should be contacting the Feds... I understand reluctance to step forward but those circumstances are beyond the pale cocoknight.
I agree. That has to be against Georgia and Federal laws, even if the local cops choose to ignore it. The way folks have gotten around that sort of pact in the past is by taking the problem outside of town to either the feds, the Journal Constitution, or to Sixty Minutes. The publicity forces the state to clean up. If the shake up is thorough enough, a new city council gets elected by the embarrassed citizenry, that is composed of good Christians (real ones), a couple of liberals, and a couple of ringers from the old guard who are outnumbered.

Coco, do you recall the stink about Forsyth County not permitting Blacks to live there after sundown? They can now, although it isn't the friendliest place, because a White local contacted Hosea Williams, who dragged the whole ugly story out into daylight by taking the press along while he let the bad guys kick him out of town. Once the Journal Constitution got hold of it, and Hosea and his friends organized a huuuge march based on the outrage of the whole thing, the county had to change. No doubt they've tried to change back; it would be interesting to know if they've succeeded.

I don't suppose you can turn this into a race and class issue?



As for your last paragraph on the EC. I agreed to the disagree but with stories such as this one component of the argument 'uneducated', and only one, seems to have been met!
(laughing) Oh, SNAP!

With disagreements like that one, it's more fun if you just keep disagreeing. But still, 'Pet,' when Madison and the gang were worrying about the passionate masses, they were talking about people who couldn't even read.

[Scarpetta]

I agree. That has to be against Georgia and Federal laws, even if the local cops choose to ignore it. The way folks have gotten around that sort of pact in the past is by taking the problem outside of town to either the feds, the Journal Constitution, or to Sixty Minutes. The publicity forces the state to clean up. If the shake up is thorough enough, a new city council gets elected by the embarrassed citizenry, that is composed of good Christians (real ones), a couple of liberals, and a couple of ringers from the old guard who are outnumbered.

Coco, do you recall the stink about Forsyth County not permitting Blacks to live there after sundown? They can now, although it isn't the friendliest place, because a White local contacted Hosea Williams, who dragged the whole ugly story out into daylight by taking the press along while he let the bad guys kick him out of town. Once the Journal Constitution got hold of it, and Hosea and his friends organized a huuuge march based on the outrage of the whole thing, the county had to change. No doubt they've tried to change back; it would be interesting to know if they've succeeded.

I don't suppose you can turn this into a race and class issue?



(laughing) Oh, SNAP!

With disagreements like that one, it's more fun if you just keep disagreeing. But still, 'Pet,' when Madison and the gang were worrying about the passionate masses, they were talking about people who couldn't even read.

Pet? People who couldn't even read? Worse than I thought!

:D This is fun!:)

[Coolwater]

Everyone has to have a nickname, although I suppose we could write your whole name out every. single. time.... :rolleyes::D Kat, excuse me, IslandKat, christened me Cool, just so's ya know.

I don't know what the illiteracy rate was in colonial America, but it must have been higher than now, right? Weren't illiteracy and land ownership one of the early proposals for criteria to vote?

Was the passions phrase Jefferson's?

[Scarpetta]

Better than being known as 'Scar'!

Alexander Hamilton made the 'passion' speeches during the Federal Convention.

Take mankind as they are, and what are they governed by? Their passions....One great error is that we suppose mankind more honest than they are. Our prevailing passions are ambition and interest; and it will ever be the duty of a wise government to avail itself of those passions in order to make them subservient to the public good....

Now Hamilton also believed in giving the rich and well-born a permanent place in government, which the wise Founders said no way, no how. Hamilton did want to concentrate power, Jefferson wanted to diffuse it. Jefferson believed the people were the safest and most virtuous. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes very wrong, and it is our 'passions' that take us on that journey.


I believe it is somewhere in between.

Have you read about EPA Director StephanJohnson? He willingly endorsed the Bush administration’s push to put business interests ahead of his agency’s mission to “to protect human health and the environment.”

Perhaps it is a new Administration elected to diffuse some of those passions, but they are only regrouping I fear.

[Coolwater]

Better than "Scarpers," or "Scarp," too!

Oh, lordy, Johnson is the biggest kiss-up toady in the world. He's taken bribe money from the Bush adminstration to turn the other way, no, worse! to endorse the pillaging of our national trusts. He's truly the "vile bird that fouleth its own nest," and no mistake.

[Scarpetta]

Better than "Scarpers," or "Scarp," too!

Oh, lordy, Johnson is the biggest kiss-up toady in the world. He's taken bribe money from the Bush adminstration to turn the other way, no, worse! to endorse the pillaging of our national trusts. He's truly the "vile bird that fouleth its own nest," and no mistake.

Oh yeh! Four former Republican administrators — Russell Train (Nixon and Ford), William K. Reilly (George H.W. Bush), Christine Todd Whitman (George W. Bush), and William Ruckelshaus (Nixon and Reagan) all criticized Johnson for deferring to the president and polluters instead of obeying his sworn oath to enforce the law.

Government at its worst. James L. Connaughton, the senior environmental adviser to Bush and lobbyist for corporate polluters. “He was a shining star from the outset,” said Connaughton. “He has done as we would have expected and hoped.”

Kinda gets you ....right there doesn't it?

Some things we do can't ever be undone. History lost...

In this place, one of the cradles of civilisation, US troops in 2003-2004 built embankments, dug ditches and spread gravel to hold the fuel reservoirs needed to supply the heliport of Camp Alpha.

Today, archaeologists say a year of terracing work and 18 months of military presence, with tanks and helicopters, have caused irreparable damage. The Americans remained five months in Babylon and then handed over to the Poles who pulled out 16 months later.

And we wonder why the world turns away?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jvUpUKpfGU3mupF7Xpyb-WMQGQAg

[Coolwater]

Kinda gets you ....right there doesn't it?

*burp!* Yep, a really bad case of agita.

On the good side, when that rat basset Governor of Illinois got wiretapped by the feds for trying to sell Obama's senate seat to the highest bidder, the Governor was recorded saying how glad he that Obama is leaving because the Obama wouldn't "play the game."

[Sam]

:D YEP! That's what I like most about Obama! He doesn't play the game he sets the stage for a new game. Give the country back to the people!

On that other matter we discussed earlier......I've made it my mission in life to work within the system to shake the local snakes up and out. That's how I know those agencies won't help. Two local tv stations did do a story on the restaurant during flooding conditions. But it only brought in more business from curiosity seekers. I guess I neglected to mention this particular business is located on state property and is frequented by state and federal employees and politicians as well as other famous people on occassion.
The Feds know about it. I've met with them before and they managed to get a drug bust for a Mexican Cartel from it including her sister and nephew... (so you can fill in the blanks from there). Yesterday her cook who manages her kitchen was arrested on drug charges and today they returned looking for her dishwasher who just happened not to be working. Today the Jail Justice Center caught fire....gee.. I wonder if that evidence is safe....
She'll be posting his bond when they let her (a week from now) just to keep him quiet.:rolleyes:

Nope Cool..can't make it a racial issue even though it's the same Slavery mentality it involves all races. And Yes I do remember that incident. But the person you mentioned would not be of any help since he and the local NAACP hold their meetings there from time to time.

But like I said earlier: This is just one example! It's the normal way most of the businesses are owned and ran here.

OK enough about this place! I sure am glad the Feds did wiretapp the Gov. Of Illinois. Maybe they will do the same for some others too.

[Coolwater]

You must be thinking of someone else: Hosea has been dead for a number of years. He was a trip! A major civil rights player who got busted regularly for drunk driving - sometimes with a gun in the car! :eek:

[Littledevil]

:( Scarpetta the patrons there are so bright. When it rains the water literally flows into the place and floods it. Sometimes to knee-deep levels. So instead of leaving and going some place else...they roll up their pants legs, kick off their shoes and go in to be served. And she expects the employees to work with water flowing around the electrical outlets. Still the health dept nor the fire dept will close her down.
But you are right. If the people in this state are willing to keep voting into office the type of people that are allowing this...then they get what they deserve. Sad part is that those who don't deserve it are still in the minority.

Barney I couldn't have said it better myself.
But I think both you and Coolwater are right. The American people are not as uneducated as we once were and those who make up the Electoral College aren't educated enough to represent us fairly.


Maybe something will be done once somebody is electricuted. She ounds heartless.

[Sam]

:rolleyes: She is a cold heartless 82 year old *%&$#.
And true to form ....the cook was released 5 days early without having to post a bond, released to her. With the charges being lowered from intent to distribute to misdemeanor personal possession.

No Cool I am not mistaken. Hosea Williams died in 2000. (you have to remember that I am only days from turning 50 myself)
There are people you meet that you never forget. And when you are in the prescence of Hosea Williams and Jesse Jackson at the same time you don't forget it. Especially when he's visiting a woman he was almost lynched for having an affair with as a teenager. I've told you guys in the past that I've led a very weird life that has had me crossing paths with people you wouldn't expect. This was one of those times. Just for the record...he was always the love of that girl's life. I could elaborate on him more but I won't do it here.

But on to other stuff. It has been an interesting week in the news hasn't it.
The deal with the Gov. of Illinois is very much like things are ran here so at least I know we don't have the corner market on it.

I found it odd that suddenly Ford is saying it doesn't need the bailout yet. As much as I dislike some of the ways they ran the company in the past at least 10 years......I have to say they have my respect. The one thing I know first hand is that their employees matter to them.

[Coolwater]

The cynical reaction is that Ford doesn't like the conditions that are likely to be attached to the money. Like beggaring the CEOs who beggared the company.

OK, new thread then. Probably won't be anyone there but we two.:D

[Scarpetta]

NOW Bush says part of the Wall Street Bailout might be used for the Auto industry, AFTER Senate didn't come up with a plan last night! What is holding it up is the claim that Labor is the cause for the ills! This is a 'break the union' move pure and ideo illogical! (New word but it works!) Bloomberg ran a piece and I liked the summation:



So let's see. In order to reduce the hourly pay of auto workers by $5, $10 or $20 an hour, eliminating some of the last good union jobs in the country, the Senate Republicans are willing to "spend" (of course all of it other people's money): $40 billion in GM defaults, $161 billion in GMAC defaults, billions in Detroit and Michigan (and other state and local government) muni bond defaults, the collapse of the GM/UAW health plan, the wiping out of billions of the balance sheets of the banks that were just bailed out, and perhaps the collapse of the Federal Reserve Bank -- all of which could be averted for $25-35 billion in federal loans to the big three.


If this isn't just the most vicious class hatred the world has seen since Marie Antoinette contemplated the san culotte of Paris and starving peasants of the French countryside.

No, this is a form of stark raving insanity.

[Coolwater]

My extreme spouse said that one of the Republican pols said (out loud!) that this was their chance to pay back the unions for not voting Republican.

[Scarpetta]

My extreme spouse said that one of the Republican pols said (out loud!) that this was their chance to pay back the unions for not voting Republican.

Then I think your 'extreme spouse' heard right!

It seems to be a mentality of conservative ideology. Don't think it through.

I just read the other Highlander board and those espousing the 'same' idea cannot see that failure of the American auto industry affects us all. Some there cannot understand that failure of the industry includes the part makers, the distributers, not just the employees and the auto company. Those individuals seem to cling to the idea that if auto industry fails it is their just reward. When those of us who own those autos and can't find parts and service, that is our just reward? The dealers, their employees......? Failure is their just reward? The loss of perhaps 3 Million jobs, in an economy that is hemorrhaging jobs just rewards? 3 M people and loss of employment how do they pay the mortgage and provide for their families? The effects keep embracing all areas of our society.

Conservatives have to answer to a lot of things. The effects of their failure to govern should be irrelevancy. Now that would be 'just reward'.

[Coolwater]

That was a stellar reply. Shall I cut and paste and post it?

[Scarpetta]

That was a stellar reply. Shall I cut and paste and post it?

Be my guest.

The blatant disregard for people and the Republican block for allowing American auto industry to fail is repugnant.

This too, the article referenced below. I have always believed that 'conservative values' were valueless in most instances. But that is just an opinion, becoming more evident as time goes on however. You remember Sen Vitter?

Vitter faulted for derailing auto bailout
by Jonathan Tilove, The Times-Picayune
Friday December 12, 2008, 10:09 PM

WASHINGTON -- Morgan Johnson, president of the United Auto Workers local representing General Motors workers in Shreveport, said Friday that Sen. David Vitter's role in blocking an auto bailout indicates "he's chosen to play Russian roulette" with Louisiana jobs and the national economy.


"I don't know what Sen. Vitter has against GM or the United Auto Workers or the entire domestic auto industry; whatever it is, whatever he thinks we've done, it's time for him to forgive us, just like Sen. Vitter has asked the citizens of Louisiana to forgive him, " said Johnson, president of Local 2166. Otherwise, Johnson said of Vitter, it would appear, "He'd rather pay a prostitute than pay auto workers."

[bryant.wanda]

Did you know that privately they are blaming us the citizens of Detroit for not reining in the CEO's. :confused:

Wanda:D

[Scarpetta]

Did you know that privately they are blaming us the citizens of Detroit for not reining in the CEO's. :confused:

Wanda:D

Really. When Dixie Republicans go into break the Union mode, they pull out all the stops. I hear there is a "smoking email" distributed amongst their ranks that makes this perfectly clear. The Southern States have given tax break subsidies to Foreign Auto Companies upwards of $4 Billion. Not that that is ALL bad, but when you turn on your own Nation and People. Dispicable!

[Coolwater]

It figures. :mad:

[Scarpetta]

An electoral college note:

Source: VOA

Presidential electors met in state capitals around the United States on Monday to confirm last month's presidential election results that will make Barack Obama the 44th U.S. president on January 20.

It is a tradition that goes back to the beginning of the U.S. republic and the first presidential election in 1789.

Several weeks after the presidential election popular vote, presidential electors meet in the various state capitals and officially cast their ballots, as required by the U.S. Constitution.

Mr. Obama won the election over Republican John McCain on November 4. Mr. Obama won 365 electoral votes, while Senator McCain won 173.


In all but two states, the winner of the popular vote is awarded all of that state's electoral votes.


Read more: http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-12-15-voa47.cfm

Appears they all voted according to their mandate.

Another Supreme Court challenge on Obama's 'citizenship' was denied without comment.

Hawaii Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino and the state's registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, say they checked health department records and have determined there's no doubt Obama was born in Hawaii.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/supremecourtopinions/2008-12-15-obama-scotus_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip


But some will keep it up. There are at least two more appeals lined up.

Democracy isn't very efficient but most of the time it works!

[Coolwater]

Here's one for the scrap book: I (and no doubt a million other folks) received a printed postcard from the Obamas thanking me for my efforts on behalf of the campaign. Well, compared to working the polls, it wasn't much and I'd forgotten all about it! I'll save it for daughter Pina, as it was for her and all of us that I did it, rather than for the Obamas, ;) She put her yard sign into HER scrap book, and the cover won't close.

[Sam]

Things are crazy busy here because of the Christmas Holidays so I'll have to catch up with all of you later.
But I was wondering if you all were aware of this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081210/ap_on_go_co/judicial_pay_raise
Ironic that the auto workers will have to take a cut in pay and benefits yet the Federal judges get a huge pay raise out of it.

Coolwater that is a very cool piece of history to be able to pass on to Pina.

[Littledevil]

All I have to say is I have been disgusted with our government and hoping my faith will be restored when Obama takes office.