Global Warming

[Littledevil]

Global Warming Myth or Fact? What do you think?

In my opinion, Global Warming is the natural cycle of the world. However, when you alter or increase the production of the natural balance of life things tend to change. The amount of CO2 put out by the human population just in the last 150years has changed and is continuing to change the Earth and how it is going to look 100years from now.

I watched a show called 6 degrees could change the world. Very interesting and not far fetched. Based on scientific evidence. It was on National Geographic channel. The Earth's natural system is very delicate and already breaking down.

[Coolwater]

Alas, I believe in global warming.

[Scarpetta]

Global Warming Myth or Fact? What do you think?

In my opinion, Global Warming is the natural cycle of the world. However, when you alter or increase the production of the natural balance of life things tend to change. The amount of CO2 put out by the human population just in the last 150years has changed and is continuing to change the Earth and how it is going to look 100years from now.

I watched a show called 6 degrees could change the world. Very interesting and not far fetched. Based on scientific evidence. It was on National Geographic channel. The Earth's natural system is very delicate and already breaking down.

Your last sentence being key. Considering we do live in the 'Natural World' there are many things that affect the balance of that Natural World. However, the balance has been tipping away from habitability in direct proportion to mans activities!


The United States is the greatest source of pollution. Though Americans make up just 4 percent of the world's population, we produce 25 percent of the carbon dioxide pollution from fossil-fuel burning -- by far the largest share of any country. In fact, the United States emits more carbon dioxide than China, India and Japan, combined. Clearly America ought to take a leadership role in solving the problem. And as the world's top developer of new technologies, we are well positioned to do so -- we already have the know-how. We just do not have the political will.

China and India are gaining on us however.

[Coolwater]

Maybe we do have the political will now.

[Sam]

:D I've been away decking the halls...so I'll try to play catch up and start here.
I agree with you all. Global warming definitely exists!! I also agree that the major part of that is depletion and destruction of the ozone layer.
I also think that part of it comes from the amounts of things we are extracting from the earth itself. Here's why.... the earth's core has a temperature we can only imagine. Everything in between the outer crust and that core acts as somewhat of a buffer from the heat. We are constantly removing oil, rocks and minerals from it and it doesn't get replaced. So some of that buffer is removed and add that to the heating effects caused by the depletion of the ozone layer and it's changes on the weather...
As you have all pointed out...it is a delicate balance and it's been not only tampered with for centuries but by a far larger population than ever before which takes more from it than ever before.

[Scarpetta]

You are decking the halls cocoknight! What a good time that can be!

Appears you have many interests, and Scientific topics are very interesting.

As for the core of the earth. We don't know its temp, and we probably won't develop technology anytime soon to do so. Estimates range from 7,000 to 12,000 degrees.

Perhaps you have read an article about that 'heat' leaking out, but from what I have studied (and I am not an expert by any means on this particular endeavor of Natural Science)

It takes a rather long time for heat to move out of the earth. This occurs through both "convective" transport of heat within the earth's liquid outer core and solid mantle and slower "conductive" transport of heat through nonconvecting boundary layers, such as the earth's plates at the surface. As a result, much of the planet's primordial heat, from when the earth first accreted and developed its core, has been retained.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=why-is-the-earths-core-so

As individuals however there are many things we can do to lessen the effects of Global Warming and not encourage damage to the Ozone Layer too by reducing cooling, heating and electrical loads. Throw out the old refrigeration units. New ones aren't perfect just a bit better.

I have a host of references if you need some more to add to your reading list!

[Coolwater]

The new technology is too expensive for most of us to just toss our old appliances and cars. I remember a monstrous, ugly refrigerator they offered in Europe back in the '70s, that was both clean and efficient - and impossible to get because of the price. Wonder if it is still considered hot stuff compared to newer fridges?

[Sam]

:D Yep Scarpetta, decking those halls can be a lot of fun.
Yes I do have lots of interests. I'm always wanting to know what makes things tic. What can I say...as a kid my first book was Curious George but my second was Encyclopedia Britannica.:p
Now those plates which shift causing earthquakes...you have to admit we have had a lot of them lately and they have been quite severe. Those plates shift by the changes in pressure below them...do they not?
Also there have been more and more volcanic eruptions recently...And they come from where? The earth's core I believe...
I can't remember exactly where I read it but...I do recall reading somewhere that the temps and pressure being measured in geysers was at one time showing a marked increase. Don't know if that is still happening or not..
Although some sink holes can be attributed to drought conditions....it would be reasonable to assume that water being pumped from underground as well as oil might also be contributing factors.
Now we know that the atmospheric conditions can control the water temps of the oceans but I would be curious to know what difference there is in the temps too deep for it to effect.
I also wonder about the aspect of mining. Can it really be a nonfactor?

Do any of you think the quantity of satellites sent up have an affect on global warming? I personally don't see how it couldn't.

Coolwater I too think the price of the new technology is still out of the reach of most people. But I think much like the electronic industry..once it takes off and more becomes available the prices will drop.
Like Scarpetta said there are many things we can do. I cut my utility bill by one third just by having new installation added and using the new energy efficient light bulbs and putting a plastic one gallon milk jug in the tank of the toilet. I also use recycled paper products.

[Tessa]

Global warming is a reality, and the evidence is there. From what I have read, it seems it is too late to do anything that will have a significant impact on it's progression at this point but that shouldn't stop us from trying.

There's some interesting reading at this link.

http://climatechange-klimawandel.blogspot.com/

[Coolwater]

What are you suggesting, that disturbances of the crust affect the core? Seems unlikely to me, given that there are places like Italy, Hawaii and Japan where the core bubbles right to the surface. That's the way its always been, and quakes have always been cyclical: that's how we know we're overdue for a California quake. Any mining that touched the core directly would result in melting the drill bit. What evidence do you have, Coco?

Yes, we recycle, never run a partially full wash, xeriscape, use flourescent bulbs (so unflattering! :() , recycle like mad - 5 separate bins! - , drive a hybrid and a high mpg vehicle, etc. My big eco sin is hot water; if I wanted to sacrifice for Lent the way some folks do, I'd give up long hot showers and baths! Indeed, if there is a better way to make hot water in a cold environment, beyond putting an insulation blanket on our hot water heater, I'd regard that as an investment.

[Scarpetta]

Been wondering that myself cocoknight. Could you elaborate where this theory came from or are you surmising the possibility that drilling etc would cause heat dissipation, adding to global warming?

The oil wells, the deepest only go down about six miles and the earth's crust averages some 20 to 40 miles deep on the continents. The pollution from drilling and burning oil and gas is much more of a danger.

Or so I have read. Where does the info come from .

I read lots of sources. Here are a couple:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/hotspots.html

http://education.sdsc.edu/optiputer/teachers/platetectonics.html

http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics

[Sam]

Nope guys, I'm not saying it's a proven fact. I'm just surmising that if you think about it long enough it makes sense.
I'm not suggesting it is the cause of global warming. Just that it might be a slight contributing factor.
We know the core is far too hot for us to measure and we have been told it is surrounded by a layer of iron with other particles mixed in.
Yet if you take a piece of iron and stick it to heat...enough heat will melt it.
And when heated iron not holds the heat.

:o Sorry but I'll have to come back and discuss this later with ya. The warden is kickin and *itchin so I've lost my train of thought.

[Littledevil]

I'll have to catch up now since my son had a virus. 104.3 temp, but he's back to his normal self now. All very good points! I do believe that I heard on the news not too long ago that the Ozone Layer over the Arctic has healed itself. America is one of the largest polution producers and we definitely need to take the lead on this very important issue. Industrial Revolution, Civil Liberties Revolutions, the Information Technology Revolution, and it now needs to be the Envirement Revolution. We abuse what we have and one day if we don't change it will be nothing like we know it today. I agree that there are many factors that contribute to our global existance. Being proactive in our defence of our life style is a must. And I mean that in the sence of just existing. The Earth has gone through cycles over millions of years. It has continued to do so. I believe we are headed towards the next ice age, but I don't think it will happen in my life time or my childrens life time. It will happen though and our best bet is too be ready. Take a look at the movie "The Day After Tomorrow". The base story of that movie is not that far fetched. Something to that extreme could very well happen. The hurricanes in the last few years are proof of that. Andrew, Charlie, Katrina, Wilma, Gustav.

I also belive we are at a cross road and the direction we choose will either be in our favor or not. Things we can do to work with nature adding specialized mirrors in space to orbit around the sun with us would help deflect some of the heat, UV and UVB rays. Using the power of the sun to heat our homes, water, & growth. Using Wind as additional sources of energy and water aswell. Using the florecent bulbs, use less chemicals when cleaning, there are several things we can do and use that won't impact the Earth as much as we are now. There is a man who designed his home to be totally energy independent. He lives in Colorado where it dips below 0 degrees. His entire house runs off 120 voltz a month. Now that is what I call doing your part, not many of us can afford that, but in time we will, we have too. Did you know you can use vinegar & lemon juice as cleaners and it is just as effective.

My family tries to do our part too. We recylce twice a month, every other Monday. We had triple pained Windows installed they reflect the sun. I have many windows through out my house so during the day I don't even have to use lights, we try to conserve as much water as possible. Our electric bill in our hottest time was $275 for one month. The rest of the year in warm months it ranges from $100 to $135. In winter the lowest month we paid $56. I don't turn the heat on unless I have too. Open windows when it is cool. I want to add solar for our water heater and energy, add more zeroscape plants around and plant drought resistant grass seed. I have around 45 Trees on my property and want to add more.

[Sam]

You have a lot of great ideas on ways to help with the global warming issues LD.
I too felt we were at a crossroad with this last presidential election. But when Obama won I got a strange sense of relief. As if we made the right turn in the road. But only time will tell for sure. It does concern me when I seem to hear of new uprisings everyday in other countries because of the economy situation.
You mentioned that sci-fi movie. I liked that movie btw. Isn't that what sci-fi movies mostly do though...take subjects which have a scientific base and expound on it? I feel we are gravitating to something different in climate changes but I don't think it will be an ice age. Probably the opposite. Where I live we used to have very cold winters with ice freezing in the waterlines and ponds and creeks freezing. But over the last forty years I have noticed that that no longer occurs here. Our summers have gotten hotter and dryer, we don't really have much of a fall or spring and just barely winter. You also mentioned the earth's cycles and that is true that they exist but I think even scientist are now having to admit that it is more than that going on.

Scarpetta, I found a link for you about the article I read on geyser activity.
http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/yvo/publications/2003/NorrisTherm03.php

And here's a link that will help explain what I was talking about earlier.
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/7146.asp

[Littledevil]

Oh Yes there is more going on than just the Earth in Cycle. We are definitely speeding up the process. Accelerating the process. Yes the movie was a Scifi genre, but was released in theaters. Actually Scientists have determined that before the previous Ice Ages there was a significant warming trend of the Earth. The most recent was called, I believe, the Mini Ice Age. Up near the Great Lakes & Canada Once the Ice Sheet melted far enough it redirected Fresh Cold Water directly into the Atlantic. When the cold water dumped into the Atlantic it started to disrupt the Gulf Stream Current. The now colder water changes the salinity and density of the Ocean as it moves north and then south again into the warmer water. As the colder water moves down into the warmer tropical region it sinks and makes the water in the warm region a degree or two colder. Now that cooler water moves North again and becomes colder and then moves South again. Over time this disrupts the cycle and you start heading into the next Ice Age. It has also been proven through sendiment analysis in parts of Europe that when the last Ice Age hit it happened rapidly over a period of 10 to 20 years. Once over that delicate tipping point. Additional the Earth does wobble a little on it's axis and a tiny shift affects climate aswell and how much of the sun penetrates. I don't think we will see this in my kids lifetime or my Grandkids lifetime. There are some in power that believe we should leave the accerlation alone to possibly decrease and pass right by an ice age. The Earth will become much warmer over the next 100 years. Stronger Hurricanes and Storms, Flooding in regions that usually don't, droubts in areas that are plush with growth, ie the Amazon. We could see the Amazon disappear before our eyes. England is now becoming an area to have Vineyards for Champayne, where before it was considered obsered to grow or even consider. Other areas live in droubts or flooding, and others become greener and more productive. That is just with a couple degrees of warmth. Now with that warmth comes the melting of ice caps and glaciers, rise of Oceans and the disruptions I already said. Statistics from previous years and computers models that have algarithyms to predict what might happen. Just like the computer models that predict weather patterns and the direction of storms. That is not to say that the models are not fool proof or a little off in the estimates.

[Scarpetta]

That was an interesting article from 2003 coco. Nothing conclusive has come from it however. Have you been to Yellowstone? It is truly a most interesting site. From the article:

Are this year's events simply a "bad case of the annual disturbance?" Or could changes at Norris be related to regional tectonic strain or even input from the deeper magmatic system (such as increased heat or gas flow)? YVO scientists and collaborators hope to soon learn the answers to these questions.

Apparently they are still studying!

[Coolwater]

I'm up for a Green Revolution!

[Scarpetta]

Green Revolution including protecting wild life. Bush admin has rushed through their gutting of the 'Endangered Species' Act by changing the regulations that protect endangered species. Now rather than biologists signing off on projects it will be agencies focused on 'the project' with wildlife impact not a consideration. The usual Bush/GOP stance, profit over .....anything else.

Obama says he will work to reverse the changes, but they take effect before he takes office and the lengthy rulemaking process has to be restarted.

Greed wins again.

[Coolwater]

Did you know there's a move afoot to reduce the time between an election and the time a new president takes office, just to prevent all this pillaging?

[Scarpetta]

Did you know there's a move afoot to reduce the time between an election and the time a new president takes office, just to prevent all this pillaging?

When so much has to go into a transition I hope we don't create more problems when haste places people in positions that shouldn't be there!

Bush made all these changes to agency regulations within a four week time I understand. All the review process started much earlier, and when opposed was ignored. Lame Duck President changes that are in the 'pipeline' on Election Day, should all dissolve! I suppose they would just start earlier! Electing competency in the first place might help.

[Coolwater]

When so much has to go into a transition I hope we don't create more problems when haste places people in positions that shouldn't be there!

Very good point.

[Sam]

Here's something I came across this morning and thought you all might find interesting.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081216/ap_on_sc/sci_arctic_ice

[Littledevil]

Another tid bit of information. Scientists have found rivers flowing through the glaciers. This melted water from the glaciers has found its way and flowing into the glaciers creating caverns of ice. Thus possibly accelerating the melting process.

[Scarpetta]

The 'rivers' you speak of might be what is referred to as
Moulins. Wikipedia defines them thus:

A moulin or glacier mill is a narrow, tubular chute, hole or crevasse through which water enters a glacier from the surface. They can be up to 10 meters wide and are typically found at a flat area of a glacier in a region of transverse crevasses. Moulins can go all the way to the bottom of the glacier and can be hundreds of meters deep, or may reach the depth of common crevasse formation (about 10-40m) where the stream flows englacially.

This too might be what you refer, and it is an interesting story!

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - To help figure out what's happening inside the fastest-moving Greenland glacier, a U.S. rocket scientist sent 90 rubber ducks into the ice, hoping someone finds them if they emerge in Baffin Bay.

The common yellow plastic bath toys are one part of a sophisticated experiment to determine why glaciers speed up in the summer in their march to the sea, said Alberto Behar of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California.

The Jakobshavn Glacier is very likely the source of the iceberg that sank the Titanic in 1912 and researchers focus on it because it discharges nearly 7 percent of all the ice coming off Greenland. As the planet warms, its melting ice sheet could make oceans rise this century.

"It's a beautiful place to visit. You can watch these icebergs continuously march across and fall into the ocean," Behar said.

What you can't see is how melting water moves through the ice.

More to the story at the link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSN1746514020080921

These 'moulins' can be observed if you ever tour the Columbia Ice Fields in Canada. The Athabasca Glacier has provided tours for years. Touring with kids I needed a harness and rope to keep inquisitive son from getting too close to one of those chutes (moulins)!

Pictures here of the fields in Jasper National Park.

http://www.colonialvoyage.com/viaggi/canadajasperathabascaglacier.html

[Coolwater]

Wow! Brr! Don't you love the duckies studies? So clever and such a shock when the duckies don't go where they are expected.

(worrying) All that desalinization is going to stall the Gulf Stream, and we will be in bad weather up to the tops of our mukluks.

[Scarpetta]

Wow! Brr! Don't you love the duckies studies? So clever and such a shock when the duckies don't go where they are expected.

(worrying) All that desalinization is going to stall the Gulf Stream, and we will be in bad weather up to the tops of our mukluks.

Mukluks for some, hip boots for others! The conveyor belt we know as the Gulf Stream is interesting. Watched a show some time ago on that. The details elude me now but the complexity of it remains. Good topic to provide links for? It is key to understanding the changes we all are being faced with.

[Sam]

And while most of the US is being blanketed with snow and ice storms....well I've been having to use my ac. Temps up to 80 degrees here! And that's without the pics of AP.:p
But we do have a promise of a slight chance of rain followed by a brief cold snap on Christmas.

[Coolwater]

I first read about it in a book, but how about a Beeb article on desalinization's effect on the Gulf Stream? It talks about Europe, but the effect on the US east coast, is the same.

http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/people/abrupt_climate_change_event.htm

BTW, sorry about being so unavailable. The combination of a new job, getting ready for Christmas, and final exam week at my daughter's school has eaten up my time.

[Scarpetta]

The Gulf Stream effect is very interesting. Appreciate the link.

No problem . Busy time of year.

Happy Holidays to all.

[Littledevil]

There are many things very interesting about Global Warming. We need to educate ourselves a lot more than we have.

[Sam]

I thought you all might enjoy these links. I found them really interesting!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081221/sc_mcclatchy/3126399
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20081222/sc_livescience/globalwarmingmightcookuptoomanymalefish

[Littledevil]

The sprayer sounds very interesting. Question is how much will it cost to build and put into place and then will it work. Ok that was more than one question.

[Scarpetta]

I agree with Ace (The seawater sprayer) that mankind is "headed straight for a disaster" , and applaud his attempt to change that. Peer review begins with those computer models. Looks like a longshot but many things that we have that are common were once longshots.

[Littledevil]

very true. Only time will tell what will happen. All we can do it try. Look at all the failed attempts to make an invention work that we take for granted today. Electricity, Phones, etc.